Should Ford, GM combine forces?

SSbaby · 08-10-2005, 10:00 PM

Hey Guys

Well this could potentially be an extremely controversial topic but I'll test the water to get a reaction...

Given Ford and GM's stocks are junk status currently, given the Japanese are making serious inroads into the the Big 3's market share... would it be a good idea for Ford and GM to share technologies to overcome their current poor financial plight? REcently, the two companies have cooperated on the development of high volume transmissions saving each company millions in the process. Then there's GM's recent venture with DC to partner up and speed up development on hybrid technologies.

I know that good product is usually the best way to get a company out of a slump but there is a worrying trend there that must be halted. How about platform or engine sharing? I know it seems unthinkable but why not... even if it's as a temporary measure?

I guess it doesn't have to be Ford and GM... DC could be the partner or even the 3 combined to create synergies. Be interested in your thoughts! ;)

08-10-2005, 10:04 PM

they could....and everyone would be joyous...yey the awful japanese automotive invasion has been beaten back...then the japanese would combine...and we would br back to square one. Nah...survival of the fittest i reckon!

**Polyal** · 08-10-2005, 10:05 PM

I can see where you are coming from, and its not a half bad idea....but I dont think it could ever work for a myrid of reason.

I could see potential if they joined forces to get half decent suppliers at a better cost (tremec anyone?!); but thats about it.

Things are not great at the moment, and will probably get worse, but we are not despeate yet!

**Falcon Coupe** · 08-10-2005, 10:31 PM

I can't see why not if we are talking about bread and butter for cylinder nuggets, but no way can i see an SS with a Boss engine in it, even though it would go like of a shovel.

Fairlane · 08-10-2005, 10:49 PM

Dont think it could work for a multitude of reasons, perhaps some minor parts agreements but thats about it. GM and Ford have never really had a succesful long term partnership with any car brand. I mean look at GM they spent over a billion to get out of Fiat

Ford and GM have dug themselves into this mess and without massive (and i mean massive) reform i think they are doomed to an extremely slow painful death. Ford Aus and Holden may survive as a sort of seperate entity. What see some major problems in the structure and most of them are in the US.

Way to many brands, all with overlapping products ? (and I know there seperate identities are not that important) It is stupidity to the highest degree and they are paying for it - Why keep Saturn when you got Chev, Why keep Mercury when you got Lincoln, Why keep Pontiac when you got Buick and Chev.

Why do you need to have massive ranges? which are virtually the same. Ford has something like 6 SUV's in the US, shore SUV's sell good but do you need 6 seprate ones. Platforms need to be used more, look at Australia we have learned to build SUV's Ute's, Wagons, Sedans and Limo's of the same platform (though i must admit Ford is starting to do this with cars like focus).

Why do Ford and GM have to try to be the biggest and the best ? if they sorted themselves out first and maintained profitibility in North America they would be in the trouble they are in now. GM lost a packet with SAAB, Fiat and Subaru and i dont think Ford has really made much dough out of PAG and Landrover.

Corporate designs and styling cues, do these ever work on more than 1 or 2 cars?

Zero Percent finance in North America - i wont say any more

:

* I really think Gm and Ford have to axe at least 3 brands each worldwide, cut the rot bring some real thinkers and think outside the square. Try stationwagons, try sports cars, try RWD, try small pickups/ute's and for gods sake ditch bloody corporate DNA.

Damn that felt to get that of my chest :jab:

Sorry the post was long but ive wanted to get these sentiments of my chest. After all none of use want to see GM or Ford go down and thousands of people to lose there jobs and live in a world were everone drives a Toyota Echo.

Wow i really did go off topic

b2tf · 08-10-2005, 10:57 PM

Um no? this is not anti-holden talking but why would they want to do that?

MrSparkle · 08-10-2005, 11:02 PM

No, as I feel that with the CombinedManagementForces™ of Ford and GM HQ's, we would be treated to the "worst of both worlds" in both direction and products.

On the local front, it would also be a very bad idea as the competition between them has been the only driving force for improvement in their products.

XD 351 Ute · 08-10-2005, 11:09 PM

They're already doing it.
You only have to look at the current Falcons & Commodores.
So little that's different, so much the same.

Ed

paul7v7 · 08-10-2005, 11:16 PM

no thank you.
imagine socialising and having something in common with some of those holden guys *shudder*

SSbaby · 08-10-2005, 11:27 PM

Well, we seem to be getting a sheepish response as most members are favouring the negative option. Let's see if I could slant the result...

What if, for example, the small four segment is low on profit margins... let's say GM were to offer a 'Focus' like vehicle in Holden showrooms... not badge engineered but enough differentiation to be a successful model for both companies. It's a good plan to generate world Corolla type volumes, methinks. Me, I wouldn't be opposed to the concept of an Falcon with an LS1 powerplant! ;)

08-10-2005, 11:32 PM

just wondering...did u pose this question on a LS1 forum? it would be interesting to see what their response was....i dont think it would be too dissimilar.

SSbaby · 08-10-2005, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EL_Advanti

just wondering...did u pose this question on a LS1 forum? it would be interesting to see what their response was....i dont think it would be too dissimilar.

Err no... I'm banned from the forum you're thinking of. And no, I don't want to add value to that forum... which is why I unashamedly support this forum. ;)

Back on topic.

Dave_au · 09-10-2005, 12:32 AM

You'd have massive anti-competitive behaviour issues, and most likely if they were to attempt this, both in the US and Australia, it would get knocked on the head.

Yaw · 09-10-2005, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Well, What if, for example, the small four segment is low on profit margins... let's say GM were to offer a 'Focus' like vehicle in Holden showrooms... not badge engineered but enough differentiation to be a successful model for both companies. It's a good plan to generate world Corolla type volumes, methinks. Me, I wouldn't be opposed to the concept of an Falcon with an LS1 powerplant! ;)

Been there done that already too.
Laser = 323
Telstar = 626
Pulsar = Astra
Lexcen = commodore
Nissan even had an XF ute!!!
Courier = Bravo
Escape = Tribute.

I'm sure that is enough to say they already do and still continue to do so.

SSbaby · 09-10-2005, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_au

You'd have massive anti-competitive behaviour issues, and most likely if they were to attempt this, both in the US and Australia, it would get knocked on the head.

The way GM and Ford have appeased the interests of the anti-competitions lobby, on the joint transmissions supply is that the compontents are not intercheangeable between each brand and both Ford and GM manufacture the transmissions in separate factories. I don't think platform sharing is any different in this regard.

I see quite a few people have missed the point completely (not you dave_au). ;)

AU-MUSTD · 09-10-2005, 07:28 AM

I vote unsure cause l wouldnt mind a g220 with the 6.0ltr ls2 wacked in it!!!!!!

py:

Racecraft · 09-10-2005, 08:26 AM

I voted yes but only for a combined marketing drive, From the point of view of a collective marketing campaign championing "Aussie" cars instead of the way it is now, advertising campaigns pinching sales from each other.. More so an argreement and mutally benifical drive to keep Ford and Holden selling well within Australia..

Keep the indentities seperate even if that involves some component sharing but I'd be all for some collaboration on a marketing push casting aspersions towards 'imported' cars..

ScoopED · 09-10-2005, 10:39 AM

I think that a combined GM/Ford effort would be the only way to develop a successful vehicle that would run on hybrid power or totally minus fossil fuels.

This would be a very good idea.

On the topic of idea sharing in "normal" cars. I dont think that it is a bad thing, because we (the customers) would have a greater chance at getting our hands on a superior, more developed product and possibly at a lesser expense to us.

All good

Mike

SSbaby · 09-10-2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racecraft

I voted yes but only for a combined marketing drive, From the point of view of a collective marketing campaign championing "Aussie" cars instead of the way it is now, advertising campaigns pinching sales from each other.. More so an argreement and mutally benifical drive to keep Ford and Holden selling well within Australia..

Keep the indentities seperate even if that involves some component sharing but I'd be all for some collaboration on a marketing push casting aspersions towards 'imported' cars..

That's an excellent point.

I agree the identities should be unique. Both GM and Ford have proud histories that should be legend. It's the stuff that the general public wouldn't know about or can't differentiate... where the two could offer their unique qualities.

Guys, i'm only raising this topic because I'm an enthusiast first, Holden man second, and a lover of GM, Ford and Chrysler in general. I despise anything from Japan. Poor attitude maybe... but I want my favourite marques to survive in this cut-throat world. Everything that GM, Ford and DC do seems to be losing favour with consumers... red ink notwithstanding. As I've stated earlier, the trend needs to be arrested and, as a consumer, I'm willing to put my money where my heart is... even if it means I would have to swallow my pride.

max^power · 09-10-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul7v7

no thank you.
imagine socialising and having something in common with some of those holden guys *shudder*

hahaha. Agreed! :thebirds:

dallasv8 · 09-10-2005, 05:41 PM

no bloody way mate

Steffo · 09-10-2005, 06:04 PM

They're already doing it, Ford and GM co-developed the new 6-speed auto going into the Commodore... 6L80E, it'll feature in a bunch of Ford North America products too. Ford AU has elected to go with the German ZF for now, but who knows, they could be forced into using the 6L too... and they'll probably be co-developing alot more in the future. They're both slowly going down the gurgler, but GM is declining at a much faster rate then FoMoCo

SSbaby · 09-10-2005, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

They're already doing it, Ford and GM co-developed the new 6-speed auto going into the Commodore... 6L80E, it'll feature in a bunch of Ford North America products too. Ford AU has elected to go with the German ZF for now, but who knows, they could be forced into using the 6L too... and they'll probably be co-developing alot more in the future. They're both slowly going down the gurgler, but GM is declining at a much faster rate then FoMoCo

Wrong. The 6 spd auto is for US applications and for FWD and AWD applications only. The transmission is actually a GM unit.

RED_EL_XR8 · 09-10-2005, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Wrong. The 6 spd auto is for US applications and for FWD and AWD applications only. The transmission is actually a GM unit.

LOL dont go debunking a perfectly good magazine rumour with facts!!

SSbaby · 09-10-2005, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

LOL dont go debunking a perfectly good magazine rumour with facts!!

LOL ;)

The Mighty Red · 09-10-2005, 09:13 PM

Go ask a holden fan to join up and he will laugh in your face!

Bossxr8 · 09-10-2005, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Hey Guys

Well this could potentially be an extremely controversial topic but I'll test the water to get a reaction...

Given Ford and GM's stocks are junk status currently, given the Japanese are making serious inroads into the the Big 3's market share... would it be a good idea for Ford and GM to share technologies to overcome their current poor financial plight? REcently, the two companies have cooperated on the development of high volume transmissions saving each company millions in the process. Then there's GM's recent venture with DC to partner up and speed up development on hybrid technologies.

I know that good product is usually the best way to get a company out of a slump but there is a worrying trend there that must be halted. How about platform or engine sharing? I know it seems unthinkable but why not... even if it's as a temporary measure?

I guess it doesn't have to be Ford and GM... DC could be the partner or even the 3 combined to create synergies. Be interested in your thoughts! ;)

Only GM's stocks are at junk levels, Fords are one step higher and teetering on the edge.

4.9 EF Futura · 10-10-2005, 11:12 AM

We've been taking a few positions on GM stock at the moment... went long but had a stop and reverse put in at $29.90 USD, luckily the order was filled and the broker started going short for us as the stock has taken a dive. Only need a 5% margin for GM stock.. woot!

They are looking to do a deal with the unions/workers to reduce the cost of the health plan. GM thinks they can save around $1billion p.a. Just stop and think for a minute - a company that can save $1 billion by reducing its health plan. That is insane amounts of money. They also looking to sell a reasonable exposure to Fuji Heavy manufacturing.... the company that manufactures subaru. Selling assets to provide working cashflow... not a good sign IMO. Fundamentals aside, tech analysis of the stock price doesnt look good either.

Just to clarify a point - it's actually GM's notes (i.e. their debt, i.e. bonds) that have been downgraded. Anything BB+ or less is considered a junk bond... or more accurately, anything BBB- or better is considered "investment grade". FoMoCo USA is currently rated BBB- having been upgraded from BB+... yes, fomoco was junk bond status in about May until recently...

I dont see what joining forces would accomplish... they are both weak companies at the moment... (total $450billion.. $450,000,000,000!!!!!!!!!! in debt)... two weak companies dont make for a strong combinded entity...

The way for these companies to improve performance is to cut costs...but then, everyone will about sourcing parts from china....

flappist · 10-10-2005, 01:59 PM

Sun Tsu said "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Sixty years ago USA and USSR joined forces to defeat Germany & Japan. This seemed to work well for a while but eventually everything went pear shaped leading to the demise of one of the players.
Due to the nature of the American psyche I suspect a merger of this type would be like oil & water.......

XAGSV8 · 10-10-2005, 03:03 PM

I would say yes, combine costs for everything bar chassis and engines and get back on track then part ways. I would rather that then being forced to drive JAP CRAP if they go out of business.

View Poll Results: Should Ford, GM combine their resources?
Yes, even if its a short term venture	9	6.21%
No thank you	119	82.07%
Unsure	17	11.72%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll