Engine size restrictions for p platers

sirweasle · 20-12-2011, 10:56 PM

Here's something to think on tonight...

I own both an au Fairlane, 6cyl, 185rwhp, and a 1967 chev impala, 327 v8, 2 speed auto, NO rwhp...

I can't legally drive or register my impala... Even tho 0 - 100km/h is like 30seconds,(actually i dont think i ever got it to 100km/h. it's got no power, no speed. But it has this big dangerous 44yr old v8 in it according the queensland transport, so i can't drive it...

My fairlane however has a 6 cyl engine and no worries mate, go for it. And anybody that has a stock 6cyl falcon knows they are pretty quick... (for a stock car)

i sent an email away to Queensland transport department stating my frustration with the system and i got an email back saying, "they are looking into amending the legislation for p plate drivers"

IS it just me or does this all seem like a load of ****, atleast give these old cars a chance to have a power to weight test done. Don't just immediately rule it out because it's cylinder number.

Moral of my rant is, it doesnt matter how big or small and engine is... in the long run, if your enough of a dumb-*** to wind the car up to ridiculous speeds, you can still crash out and kill yourself and others...

A swift is faster then my impala for F*(& sake... and that's saying something!

Windsor342ci · 20-12-2011, 11:00 PM

Best of luck with this thread lasting brother.

350125GO · 20-12-2011, 11:01 PM

Had the same issue mate. Drove my Fairlane for the 3 years, then grabbed a Galaxie (was looking at Impalas) with a big block. Good luck getting it changed, you're gonna need it.

xisled · 20-12-2011, 11:03 PM

It is not just about the engine, it is about the safety features in the car. You are more likely to survive a small accident in your AU than you are in you Impala. Yes the AU may be quicker but the AU also has airbags and such to back you up, just in case you have a small mishap.

It is not just about how fast your car is. An older V8 that is like brick wall, is more dangerous than a newer car.

But yes both cars at speed will kill.

sgt_doofey · 20-12-2011, 11:41 PM

Yes, IMO, it's a bit silly. Even a 0.9L 3 cylinder POV pack will still do 100km/h in to a tree. The problem ain't the car but the person sitting in the front right hand seat.

cheek · 20-12-2011, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

Yes, IMO, it's a bit silly. Even a 0.9L 3 cylinder POV pack will still do 100km/h in to a tree. The problem ain't the car but the person sitting in the front right hand seat.

Exactly^
Another thing is, driving an old car like an impala you know if you crash into anything your stuffed so you have to drive it accordingly and take it easy. Well I do with my F100 anyway...

phillyc · 20-12-2011, 11:52 PM

Complain too loud and the bureaucrats will ban the Falcon. They go for lowest common denominator type rules and implement via lots of red tape.

Simple solution. Power to weight and torque to weight. Allow 125kW or 250Nm per tonne kerb weight. Bikes have been like this for years. Initially those rules were capacity of 250cc or less plus power to weight. I think under 650 is okay these days with power and torque limits.

Perhaps incentivise it with ANCAP NCAP rated vehicles.
Ie 0 star / pre rating gets 100kW/200Nm
1 stars 105/210
2 stars 110/220
3 stars 115/230
4 stars 120/240
5 stars 125/250

sirweasle · 20-12-2011, 11:57 PM

phillyc... i agree with u completely and its exactly what i stated in the email i sent to tmr. for the others. thanx for posting. i understand the safety issue. but i would hate be in an accident in an.older smaller car. i like the thought of tonnes of steel around me rather then some plastic guards and an airbag. plus my impala has better aftermarket.brakes.then the au anyway... and i hvnt had abs for a year because something is rooted and ford couldnt evn tell me what was wrong... useless...
it may not be logical but big cars make me feel safer...

Ford_The_Win · 21-12-2011, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirweasle

phillyc... i agree with u completely. and for the others. thanx for posting. i understand the safety issue. but i would hate be in an accident in an.older smaller car. i like the thought of tonnes of steel around me rather then some plastic guards and an airbag.

it may not be logical but big cars make me feel safer...

I know this has been posted a million times, sorry guys, but watch this sirweasle and it will get rid of that fallacy about big old cars being safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5Fx_pgxzH8

Big, glitzy, very heavy and solid Bel Air crumples like a coke can, killing the driver, whereas the plastic-fantastic mid-size new car holds up exceptionally well. That's modern tech for ya.

Back to the topic, weren't the initial P-plate restrictions based on a power-to-weight ratio? How come they were changed? The '67 Impala was a slow car even when it was new, I saw a road test video on youtube of the '69 model...13 seconds to 100... you'd struggle to beat a Fiesta off the line.

sirweasle · 21-12-2011, 01:00 AM

gee, that belair is a write-off... but i never specified big OLD cars, just big.

But in the TMR rules, no where do they mention safety features of cars, they are basing their rules on v8 cars or supercharged/turbo cars will kill you easier... Which is rubbish.

And as far as i'm aware in QLD there has never been power to weight for p platers, just 200kw max, no v8 or higher. Can't have a forced induction of any type unless on a diesel... and a certain engine capacity for rotary's which when i checked only allowed a mazda 12a engine...

falconnut · 21-12-2011, 01:01 AM

I agree with you op.

But dont give them any ideas people :\

grandpa_spec_F6 · 21-12-2011, 01:18 AM

Please excuse the rant but I see this type of thread once a week at least. It's a complicated answer with multiple layers but I've tried to analyse it as best I can.

Every thread I see a thread regarding this it comes down to the same conclusion... Joe Public doesn't care if you want a "cool" car on your P-Plates, they only care about what the media tells them to care about.

The hysterical cries of "WON'T SOMEONE PLEEEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN" echo in my mind, as does the media beat-up of car enthusiasts.

It all boils down to politics, the pollies only "care" about getting a vote and thus they prey on bandwagon mentality of the masses that are force fed said BS by the puppet masters controlling the current mass media, which reports on what it's told to in all their almighty bias glory.

What sells? That's the first question that is usually asked. If you saw the latest charity cruise AFF put on across multiple states, with pics of RussellW handing out toys to kids and everyone putting along merrily with their x-mas cheer,.... it'd be heart warming, but would peak as much interest to the general public as road kill.

HOWEVER! If one of those people happened to break the forum rules (and cruise / road rules) and screeched the tyres on a public road as they were leaving, two words, "Open Season". Immediately they are labelled a hoon, everyone knows what it means, everyone knows it's a bad thing...... but how do they know this? Because the media told them of course...

So how did they achieve this instant recognition now hard wired into the general public? Firstly, they took a leaf out of the racism book, pick on a minority i.e. someone who is weaker or of fewer numbers than you and invent a persona for them as a collective. In wartimes this was seen as a way to de-humanise the enemy thus making it easier to kill them, or hate them as a collective, i.e "Let's give Charlie hell!"

Thus "HOON" was born, a faceless, nameless branding of anyone that was deemed to be "in the wrong" or partaking in "objectionable activity" on the road.

BIG PROBLEM!

So you've invented a catchphrase, now you have to give it personality, you have to give it character, depth, something that people can instantly recognise (and victimise) but not feel that they could ever be one themselves... more or less, you have to make sure that it is a derogatory, demeaning term that instantly allows Joe Public to get on their "moral high horse" by providing key identifiers so that people can recognise it.

Bit of a mouthful? Sure is.... and this is where it gets interesting kids.... the lines have long since blurred as to what "IS" and "ISN'T" a "HOON" despite the media's best attempted to spew it's fear mongering indoctrination of the nation far and wide.

Their failure to accurately represent the car culture currently in Australia is of bibilical proportions, so let's go back to the 90's, where one of the most impounded "HOON" cars began.

In the beginning, there was a VN, and it revved like BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM and selected "D" for maximum respect, most likely with Riksta somewhere in the vicinity.

NOT SAFE FOR WORK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoGKdQxg3rU

Then there was highway drags, and illegal burnout meet and greets, and street drags, and drifting.... then they ran out of actual things to pick on... more so, they ran out of ways to keep a consistent revenue stream via sensational stories that make ma and pa cus at the tellie. Alas, much like Nintendo flogging the Mario franchise like the dead horse it is, they got inventive.

As the beating stick came out the list of what constituted a "HOON" became exponentially longer.

Taking off with a little extra throttle to get in front so you could merge safely ahead? HOON!

Arm resting on the window? HOON!

Car meet and greet with some nice exhaust notes? HOONS!

P-Plater? HOON!

Low car? HOON!

Rims? HOON!

More power than a YARIS? HOON!

Granny in a YARIS doing 105km on the highway? HOON!

For the biggest bucket of FAIL I've ever seen in my life, look up what others now deem as "HOONING": http://stophoons.com/?page_id=297

What I'm getting at here is that now anyone or anything can have the label applied to it as it is subject to Joe Public's interpretation of the word.

The media have done "such a fantastic job" (/sarcasm) at educating everyone, we can now all rest easy knowing that the polies have heard our desperate cries for help and legislating the "tar" (pun intended) out of the road rules.

As Cardinia Highway Patrol Sergeant Nigel Atkins puts it, hooning is: "a mindless epidemic by stupid people that were too afraid to do it in their own streets in fear of parents finding out".... yes.... clearly we're all on the same page here...

Though picking on a minority, the media have adversely affected the vast majority of road-abiding citizens who might not have the same tastes as everyone else.

Yes you are a P-Plater, yes you may be responsible, but the legislation is there to get the polies votes under the thinly veiled guise of "it's to protect you", logic is lost amongst the bleeting of sheep and gnashing of teeth in this debate.

At the end of the day, the polies can and will get votes though bandwagon mentality, the mass media will hype up whatever it can to make a quick buck, and the legislation books will be thrown open to a roar of cheers from the Do-Gooders of society, however they forgot one thing....

YOU CAN'T LEGISLATE AGAINST STUPID!

TheyDontWantMus · 21-12-2011, 01:28 AM

1980 Holden Kingswood, 5 litre V8, 179kw
2007 Toyota Aurion, 3.5 litre V6, 200kw

sirweasle · 21-12-2011, 01:29 AM

that was a good read mate, thanx for posting!!

flappist · 21-12-2011, 01:35 AM

Well maybe it is not a good idea to have low experience drivers in any old technology cars that do not have the safety features on modern vehicles.

So how about P platers can drive anything with a 100kw/tonne or lower P/W ratio regardless of engine topology as long as ABS, DSC, airbags and crumple zones....

grandpa_spec_F6 · 21-12-2011, 01:35 AM

For a good read check out Nerida Leal's thesis, facinating stuff, particularly, read 1.3 - Current approaches to dealing with the problem.

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/43350/1/Ne...eal_Thesis.pdf

falconnut · 21-12-2011, 01:39 AM

i wish you where my grandpa grandpa_spec_F6

Excellent post, i have had many a rant about how stupid the term 'hoon' is...

But i will leave it there as i have ranted enough about it in real life as well as on other forums over the years.

All i can say is that when i am on my full license and get rid of the greens people will hopefully take me seriously but at the moment as soon as they see the big bearded red blood aussie in a big dirty red falcon they tend not to take my seriously.

Hopefully the bogans and the like will mostly ignore me, but i doubt it :(

2011G6E · 21-12-2011, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xisled

It is not just about the engine, it is about the safety features in the car. You are more likely to survive a small accident in your AU than you are in you Impala. Yes the AU may be quicker but the AU also has airbags and such to back you up, just in case you have a small mishap.

It is not just about how fast your car is. An older V8 that is like brick wall, is more dangerous than a newer car.

But yes both cars at speed will kill.

Sorry, but yes, it is "just about the engine"...they say no turbos, no superchargers, no V8's...full stop. They don't specify "must have air bags, not be too old, have good safety ratings", etc.

sirweasle · 21-12-2011, 01:47 AM

and for people who.have tried.... braking without abs pulls you up quicker then with it.

defensive driving courses should be compulsary for all beginner drivers.

just saying...

falconnut · 21-12-2011, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirweasle

and for people who.have tried.... braking without abs pulls you up quicker then with it.

defensive driving courses should be compulsary for all beginner drivers.

just saying...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lo...#Effectiveness

ABS is a life saver and it feels alot better than non ABS

flappist · 21-12-2011, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirweasle

and for people who.have tried.... braking without abs pulls you up quicker then with it.

defensive driving courses should be compulsary for all beginner drivers.

just saying...

Really?

You have research that debunks every single engineering paper ever written?

Wow.........

sirweasle · 21-12-2011, 02:07 AM

when i did a defensive driving course they let us compare stopping distance with and without abs at 80kmh on wet concrete... if u could brake hard without locking up... u stop quicker then just mashin the brake and letting the abs take control. this was in a 09 corolla. maybe not all cars are like this.

sirweasle · 21-12-2011, 02:19 AM

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/braking.htm#4

READ that

Threshold braking is the term i was referring to.

brydie76 · 21-12-2011, 07:57 AM

The ones I love in relation to this law is-

- I could go out, get a twin turbo v8/v12 (forget which one) Audi Q7 and drive that no restrictions because it is a diesel, yet-

- I have to go to the RTA and pay for a special exemption notice for a VW Polo 1.2 TSi. And when I was looking at them a while ago, there was no guarantee you would get the restriction (came down to who was at the desk on the day. When I originally went in and enquired, the lady behind the desk went "I don't think we would exempt that. Isnt it just one of those how GTIs with a new name?" :face palm: )

Agree with what others posted above, it should be power to weight. Works brilliantly with motorbikes, although the new Ducati they just slipped under the limits is a bit iffy (doesn't stop me wanting one anyway haha!)

**Burnout** · 21-12-2011, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grandpa_spec_F6

YOU CAN'T LEGISLATE AGAINST STUPID!

The first fatal I saw involving a 'P' driver, the vehicle driven was a Datto 1200 Ute.

RedHotGT · 21-12-2011, 11:55 AM

To the OP - it's very simple...

Wait until you are off your P' plates... No problems...

Earn your stripes on the road first... and enjoy your big ol' yank tank later on... once you've got some skills developed on the road...

TheyDontWantMus · 21-12-2011, 12:07 PM

I learnt to drive in a Toyota Celsior (4 litre V8)

learnt about understeer 3 days after getting my Ps too... :p

But at the end of the day, a non turbo car isn't "safer"

straight 6 BF falcon, most likely do 180 - 200kph...

so will the turbo or V8...

the difference is, that the turbo and V8 have bigger brakes!

same with a lot of cars, right back to the KE lasers, turbo VS non turbo...

so in fact, the government isn't allowing P plate drivers to drive the safer cars!

flappist · 21-12-2011, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirweasle

when i did a defensive driving course they let us compare stopping distance with and without abs at 80kmh on wet concrete... if u could brake hard without locking up... u stop quicker then just mashin the brake and letting the abs take control. this was in a 09 corolla. maybe not all cars are like this.

So on a smooth flat known surface when braking in a non emergency situation with no other obsticles, stationary or moving, while giving 100% attention to a braking manouvre that is pre-planned you can stop more quickly than letting a computer control it for you?

Yep, that is how all real life road emergencies happen........

TheyDontWantMus · 21-12-2011, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep, that is how all real life road emergencies happen........

mine do!

Ben73 · 21-12-2011, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xisled

It is not just about the engine, it is about the safety features in the car. You are more likely to survive a small accident in your AU than you are in you Impala. Yes the AU may be quicker but the AU also has airbags and such to back you up, just in case you have a small mishap.

It is not just about how fast your car is. An older V8 that is like brick wall, is more dangerous than a newer car.

But you are allowed to drive 40 year old brick wall if it has a 6 or 4 cylinder. Still less safe then new cars, but if its a 6 cylinder you will be safe.

The banning V8, turbo and superchargers is just the easiest way for them. They just palm it off into the too hard basket.

When I was looking at 4x4s on my P's I emailed the RTA asking why I couldn't drive a V8 4x4 even though they were slower then most cars P platers owned. The response I got was just a copy and paste of the the normal PR ********.
P plater inexperience blah blah, speed kills, blah blah, big engine deadly, blah blah. They didn't actually answer my question. Too much work.