Next Falcon will be less Australian

[Poetic Justice]

Hopefully this isn't a repost.

source:drive.com.au


The future of the Ford Falcon could be shared with other large Fords around the world in a push for globalisation. By TOBY HAGON.


The days of a Ford Falcon designed and built by Australians for Australians are numbered.

That’s the prognosis of Ford’s vice president of product development Derrick Kuzak, who admits the next-generation Falcon will likely share components (and possibly design elements) with other Ford vehicles, such as the American Taurus.

The entire Falcon could even be shared with other nameplates in the Ford world.

“When we work globally and we look at vehicles that are similar in terms of the market segments and the customers we’re trying to serve, you’re absolutely correct that large sedans and large utilities like Falcon and Territory have similar needs and customers to vehicles like Flex and Taurus in North America,” says Kuzak.

“So when we look to the future that’s exactly what we’re doing – [trying to work out] how do we serve both markets and both sets of vehicles in one way.”

For decades Ford Australia has designed, engineered and built Falcons that have been unique to Australia (as well as some low-volume export markets such as South Africa and New Zealand).

But Ford is now moving to a “One Ford” world, where entire vehicles and many components are increasingly shared across countries and model lines to maximise economies of scale and reduce development and engineering costs. Such a move has been hinted for some time.

One example is the next-generation Focus small car, which will be built in Australia alongside the Falcon from 2011.

While arch-rival Holden has positioned itself as the General Motors centre for large, rear-drive cars, Ford Australia’s role in the development of large cars such as the Falcon is still unclear.

As is the future of what has been a large part of the Falcon’s sales pitch - rear-wheel drive.

On a recent visit to Australia, Ford’s global president Alan Mulally said a decision had not been made on whether the Falcon would switch to the more common front-wheel-drive layout – which has advantages with reducing weight and allowing for more interior space – or continue with rear-wheel drive.

Kuzak expands on those comments and says the decision of what wheels will be driven will largely come down to fuel economy and what works best.

“With our new platforms we are committed to substantial weight reduction,” says Kuzak.

“It’s not just rear-wheel drive, front-wheel drive – it’s that type of vehicle in the [context] of what makes sense in 2015 when we need to reduce our weight substantially and our fuel economy substantially.”

Kuzak says there are advantages with rear-wheel drive when it comes to weight balance, vehicle dynamics and refinement but that a decision will not be made for some time.

In a rare win for the locally made large car, the timing of a global swing to small cars and the recent launch of a new Falcon means a decision on its future won’t have to be made for a few years.

Ford’s new FG Falcon only went on sale in April 2008; going on previous life cycles of the Falcon that means the basic platform (and doors, windows, etc) should still be in use until at least 2013.

“We’ve put it on the back burner because we’re not going to have to make that decision now for a while,” says Kuzak.

“We have a plan today. We have many decisions that we’re trying to make relatively quickly because of the structural change that’s occurred in the Australian market, that’s occurred in the North American market. So we’re just trying to go through the decisions in a very structured manner.”

Kuzak acknowledges the decision on whether to switch from rear- to front-wheel drive is a crucial one for Ford but one that may not make sense for volume-selling vehicles such as the Falcon and its Territory offshoot.

“What we’re trying to understand is the role of rear-wheel drive going forward,” says Kuzak. “There clearly will always be a role [for rear-wheel drive] for performance vehicles and sports cars.

“Whether rear-wheel drive is the right choice for sedans and other larger crossovers we’re just not sure any more. Given what’s happening in your market, given what’s happened in the US market, we’re just not sure, so we’re going through studies to understand just what the role is.”

In the shorter term, though, Ford admits it has bigger challenges, the most crucial being improving sales of its small cars.

“We have to re-establish trust in our brand,” says Jim Farley, Ford’s group vice president of marketing and communications, who admits the Ford brand “hasn’t been seen as a relevant brand, or at least as relevant as it could be”.

“Ford’s line-up around the world wasn’t really balanced,” the former Toyota executive says frankly of a brand that’s focused heavily on large vehicles in countries like the United States. “When it comes to passenger cars we have to be different.”

Farley says “small is big” and that sales of small cars are set to double by 2014. Ford has already said small cars are the future.

Large cars, on the other hand, are continuing to lose favour. Sales of the Falcon have tumbled over the last decade. Even the arrival of an all-new model a few months ago hasn’t stopped the slide; Falcon sales for August 2008 were 10 per cent lower than for the outgoing Falcon in August 2007.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SCUD

Hopefully this isn't a repost.

.

The topic is.......

[RG]

A FWD V6 Falcon. FORD there was a reason that the Magna and 380 were canned you fools!

[mongoloid]

Haven't ford in america remained the only big car manufacturer to maintain RWD in their large sedans? I dont think we'll be losing RWD anytime soon

[Fev]

what makes sense in 2015 when we need to reduce our weight substantially and our fuel economy substantially.”

oh praise the lawd!


I think everyone has known that eventually the American and Australian division would come together and start creating mutually beneficial cars.
Lets just hope we get some new goodies like the alloy v8 and RHD mustangs standard

[Fev]

Originally Posted by mongoloid

Haven't ford in america remained the only big car manufacturer to maintain RWD in their large sedans? I dont think we'll be losing RWD anytime soon

what about Mercede's and BMW?

[Paxton]

This is scaremongering of the best sort by Drivel. When have they once published a favourable piece about Ford? Even VY used to beat BA.

The Next Falcon, being (The car previously known as) Huntsman will be RWD. The car after that will also be RWD. There was a mention of consolidating the Falcon and Taurus onto the same platform, but Taurus is bigger than the Fairlane was. Falcon will be RWD/AWD. If Ford Australia make a Large FWD, expect it to be called Mondeo.

It wouldn't be too bad having an Australian Liberty competitor would it?

[Powdered Toast Man]

Originally Posted by mongoloid

Haven't ford in america remained the only big car manufacturer to maintain RWD in their large sedans? I dont think we'll be losing RWD anytime soon

Thats because the Crown Vic underpinnings date back 30 years

Chevy stopped manufacturing the Caprice which was about the same age engineering wise.

I think America lead the charge into FWD large cars actually. It's the Europeans and us that didn't waver.

The Taurus was FWD for most of the 90's. It's only starting to go back to RWD and AWD now. I dont think we will lose RWD as the Americans have finally realised it's the best way to go with large cars.

Chrysler have already converted with the 300C and Charger, large RWD sedans and wagons.

[sandmanls1]

Let's hope they don't mix it with a Crown Victoria.

[Swordsman88]

i'm with paxton on this.....while to do due diligence the suits have to consider all options, at the end of the day it would most likely just be cheaper and more effective to stay with RWD for falcon/GRWD platform. Ford Aus could probably do a GRWD based on FG type architecture (suspension anyway) for way less development $ then Ford US could do a new large FWD platform anyway. Hell FG is already AWD capable so no probs with AWD version for US snow affected states (plus DSC/RWD is just as stable as FWD anyway).

Finally, where the weight/packaging penalty of RWD is a problem with small cars (BMW 1 series anyone??) it isn't as much of a concern with large vehicles.....you'd save more with high strength steel anyway (new Fiesta is an example, based off mazda 2 with over 50% high strength, bigger but weight DOWN 40 kg). I think FWD has come a long way in recent years (mondeo etc.) but for 1.6 tonne plus large cars, and 2 tonne plus SUVs a RWD architecture will always be superior.

Not forgetting that part of the reason Ford US kept the panther platform Crown Vic going was that it was still quite popular with police/taxi operators, 'caus its tough and the cops like the RWD layout. Now i'm sure if Ford stopped making RWD cars the cops would just have to put up, but the point is it wouldn't be hard to make a cost effective RWD fleet car out of GRWD/FG underpinnings. Geez, how much is a XT sold for here???

[outback_ute]

Another barrage of negative reporting, great...

The problem is there is a real issue in the USA with required Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) legislation which is what is driving Ford's current indecision re FWD/RWD. The simple fact is a FWD will be slightly lighter and therefore have slightly better fuel economy than an equivalent RWD car (same size/engine/etc).

While the Falcon going to a GRWD platform sounds like a good idea, consider that the only other market outside what Australia currently exports to is North America - there aren't any large Ford sedans in Europe any more. There is also a split between a premium sedan and the cheap Mustang (they start under US$20k!!) - Falcon fits somewhere in between. It's certainly not an easy problem to solve, and to keep going with the status quo is not a fantastic option either.

[Paxton]

There has been talk from within Ford that the US bosses (Kuzak and Mullally) are blown away with what Ford Australia have been able to develop with their meagre budgets. Falcon has basically been on the same platform for 50 years, with various and numerous changes since then. Don't forget that Blackwood was based on XC, and the numerous improvements since then keeping what was a cheap platform back in the late 50's, up to date, and modern.

Ford USA are crying out for this. Look at where Crown Victoria is - it handles like a truck (because it is!), however it is insanely profitable, because it hasn't changed since implementation. Falcon on the other hand is cheap, reliable and, as we see at every Airport in the country, good for the long haul. 9/10 Taxi Drivers can't be wrong. Ford Australia are in a very good position to take the brand upmarket with Fiesta, the Australian Focus, Kuga (which will probably be built here too), and Falcon/Territory.

Who here would be complaining if Falcon became Australia's Subaru Liberty? Upspec every car, and send them to the USA, and Europe as a premium product. Look at how well the Liberty sells, as it is percieved as a premium product. The first thing that needs to be done is the removal of XT, and have G6 (Futura) and XR6 as the base models. XT should be fleet hack only, and even then, it should only be available to fleets. Price G6 at ~$500 more than XT. Let Holden get the Rental and Large Fleet Markets - there is little money in them, and Ford can take off from where Aurion has failed. The Game hasn't changed, people are just not buying large cars, they are buying SUVs. The Australian market is also the most hotly contested market in the world. There are more car brands in Australia than there is in the USA, but I digress.

Australia has proven that we can produce a cheap and profitable large car. It might take the Yanks some time to get over their Not Made Here mantra, but after that, Falcon should become GRWD. It needs very few (no) changes to become this. It isn't future proofed AWD for nothing.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Paxton

Australia has proven that we can produce a cheap and profitable large car. It might take the Yanks some time to get over their Not Made Here mantra, but after that, Falcon should become GRWD. It needs very few (no) changes to become this. It isn't future proofed AWD for nothing.

This is essentially what i was getting at also Paxton. Its just too easy (engineering/cost wise) to turn Falcon into GRWD.....wheras developing a platform for FWD large cars (and suvs) wouldn't be cheap, esp if done in the US. Why bother??? Meeting CAFE standards won't be easy no matter which ends pushes the car, but the relatively small weight savings of FWD over RWD won't be significant compared to new engines etc. If i had to bet money on it (and you'd be a dill to this but...) i'd say RWD falcon on a global platform will win in the end. As for the V8 engine.....ah wouldn't be so sure on that. If the US gets really serious with fuel economy, a Ecoboost (TTV6) Duratec is the best you can hope for i would say.

As for the Falcon going upmarket, i'm all for that. The XT is quite nice for a base model but the G6 is the standout for me in the FG line-up. On the road it looks like its worth much more than 40k drive away - and it drives like it too. If you have mondeos etc. at the same size and cheaper (start 30-40k) then that is your large car base model effectively - falcon is for luxury/performance, which it does very well indeed. I can't see why you coudln't send it to Europe for that matter as well as a niche model also..... Either way the platform development is what matters and i think Ford Aus is in a for a serious shot on that front.

[Paxton]

Swordsman - there is a new V8 coming. 5 Litres, Direct injection and Ecoboost. It'll be first seen on the next Mustang.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Paxton

Swordsman - there is a new V8 coming. 5 Litres, Direct injection and Ecoboost. It'll be first seen on the next Mustang.

I forgot about that engine Paxton, you have mentioned this in the past.... This mustang engine is a XR8 replacement engine i suppose.....should make decent torque with DI 5.0....easilly match 520nm. As for FPV....ecoboost becomes standard V8 then???

This is distinct from the whole 5.0 litre Jag engine then? Surely that is a furphy...

[GS608]

What i don't understand is that they know we make a better car, they know it looks better and drives better than their junk but they still want to kill it off, I bet if they dumped the Taurus and all that other FWD pussbox crap and brung back the Ford Falcon into the market it'd take off, even if it is a V6. Then they can bring back the Lane and make it the Crown Vic.

perfect situation would be Falcon becomes GRWD platform, replaces Taurus, Terrority replaces Taurus X

[futura888]

Remember Ford aren't the only one's who are doing this,GM are adopting the holden rwd platform globally etc.2009 camaro which is based on the ve architecture and the new buick(can't remember the name for the life of me??),in a market where they are losing billions of $$ a year...they will need to adopt something soon,otherwise we'll all be driving hybrid toyota's and honda's.

[icejagans]

all i have to say is blame alan mulally!!
the bastard is more of a business man than a petrol head.
he drove the fg range and still couln't care less if the falcon went fwd.
noooooooooooooooo!!

[Deech]

Originally Posted by futura888

Remember Ford aren't the only one's who are doing this,GM are adopting the holden rwd platform globally etc.2009 camaro which is based on the ve architecture and the new buick(can't remember the name for the life of me??),

Originally Posted by Drive.com.au

While arch-rival Holden has positioned itself as the General Motors centre for large, rear-drive cars, Ford Australia’s role in the development of large cars such as the Falcon is still unclear.

Originally Posted by goauto.com.au

GM HOLDEN is shedding an unspecified number of contract design and engineering positions following parent General Motors’ decision to abandon work based on the Australian-developed global rear-wheel drive architecture.

By TERRY MARTIN 2 September 2008
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11233152

Every day I expect the Australian motoring media to headline an article "The VE Commodore: Owning one cures cancer"

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by futura888

Remember Ford aren't the only one's who are doing this,GM are adopting the holden rwd platform globally etc.2009 camaro which is based on the ve architecture and the new buick(can't remember the name for the life of me??),in a market where they are losing billions of $$ a year...they will need to adopt something soon,otherwise we'll all be driving hybrid toyota's and honda's.

Not true. The Zeta platform (of which VE is based on) is dead, and will not receive any more updates to. It was a comedy of errors from the beginning that platform, as it was deemed too big for anything, Commodore, Statesman and anything American. Ford is lucky that they could watch Holden make the mistakes and then make their decisions later. More info here.

Swordsman - The Ford 5.0 is just that, a Ford motor. Not related to anything Jaguar. The word is that is is a stroked Quad Cam 4.6. Sounds interesting.

Edit: icejagans Mullally is a very good businessman, and is doing very well at telling people what they want to hear. He is telling the Americans that he is going to cut costs and cut excess duplication of cars. He has also told people at Lara, Geelong and Broadmeaows that Falcon is the best Ford in the world, bar none. It is his job to consider everything and move on. Besides, Ford Australia is going to struggle to develop GRWD until the finish T6 :monkes:

[Falc'man]

lol at Toby. He doesn't know what he's on about, the bloke is bored and has nothing but scaremongering (as Paxton said) on his mind.

Well said Paxton. I agree with the the idea of dropping the XT. Keep the whole range as a premium offering.

Another stake in the heart of the "FWD for Falcon" ideology, is the Mustang itself. Yes, the same car that was originally based off the original FALCON a million years ago, will always remain a RWD, as Kuzak so kindly suggests, RWD is what a performance model should have. There will always be RWD in the Ford family, and the best RWD on the planet (for it's budget, anyway) is the FG's. That's something Kuzally can't look past. They better not.

Originally Posted by Deech

By TERRY MARTIN 2 September 2008
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11233152

Every day I expect the Australian motoring media to headline an article "The VE Commodore: Owning one cures cancer"

Well picked up Deech. Another piece of classical journalism on behalf of Toby. The guy is an amature by totally overlooking one of the most significant automotive decisions in 2008.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

lol at Toby. He doesn't know what he's on about, the bloke is bored and has nothing but scaremongering (as Paxton said) on his mind.

Well said Paxton. I agree with the the idea of dropping the XT. Keep the whole range as a premium offering.

Another stake in the heart of the "FWD for Falcon" ideology, is the Mustang itself. Yes, the same car that was originally based off the original FALCON a million years ago, will always remain a RWD, as Kuzak so kindly suggests, RWD is what a performance model should have. There will always be RWD in the Ford family, and the best RWD on the planet (for it's budget, anyway) is the FG's. That's something Kuzally can't look past. They better not.


Well picked up Deech. Another piece of classical journalism on behalf of Toby. The guy is an amature by totally overlooking one of the most significant automotive decisions in 2008.

I for one finding it almost spooky that after spending so many years apart, the Falcon and Mustang might once again be together...... On the one hand this has been mooted for years, and is dead logical. On the other, its is pretty cool that after the aussie falcon and US mustang both being of the now long discontinued US falcon, they will be returning to their common roots in effect.

It is an issue for Ford US....sure they have to save cash with common platforms, but the assumption has always been that it is GRWD for the large vehicle. But Ford could do a large FWD/AWD platform (linked to mondeo/volvo etc.) and then a FG/Mustang set up. This allows for synergies but flexibility greatly improve. You might have two platforms, but that is still less than what you have now (crown vic/panther, mustang, FG, mondeo C1, Taurus etc....) and you can build pretty much anything from medium size through to full monocoque SUV in FWD, AWD, RWD etc. If you use the same engines (well share the V6s) in both platforms (one transverse one longitidunal) then you would maintain further synergy. Why everyone assumes it is one platform for EVERYTHING is beyond me. Falcon/Mustang/Lincoln??/Crown Vic/Territory/Explorer on one platform, Mondeo/Taurus/Flex etc. on another. If you want heavy weight/power you go GRWD, you want lower fuel burn, smaller packaged cars FWD. Works no??

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Paxton

Swordsman - The Ford 5.0 is just that, a Ford motor. Not related to anything Jaguar. The word is that is is a stroked Quad Cam 4.6. Sounds interesting.

A stroked 4.6 with DI....interesting indeed. Certainly a very different route then GM with the ever increasing small block. Also very different from the 'F series' V8s people have talked about in the past.

Originally Posted by Paxton

............... Besides, Ford Australia is going to struggle to develop GRWD until the finish T6 :monkes:

There is plenty of time till GRWD is needed, which is also overlooked. All this scaremongering by the media every two weeks makes it seem imminent. FG has some time to run yet (with the usual updates, eg. V6) and taurus/flex aren't very old either. When is this T6 getting released?... its been a while that those guys have been ferritting away. I think that Ford has done wonders in transforming segments in recent times (FG, Kuga SUV, Territory SUV, new Fiesta maybe??) so am interested in what they have come up with RE commercial utes. That segment needs a hurry up bad....no vehicle, even one that holds the weight they do, should ride/handle like they do....big improvements needed IMO....

[Jayden]

at least remove the back doors for one last ultimate falcon, before you completely F* over the last of your loyal followers with what quite frankly sounds like a Camry made worse by the fact it is a neutered bastardisation of a long running Australian icon. And why does Ford say 'taurus' as if its some sort of magic bullet? they must be delirious.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I forgot about that engine Paxton, you have mentioned this in the past.... This mustang engine is a XR8 replacement engine i suppose.....should make decent torque with DI 5.0....easilly match 520nm. As for FPV....ecoboost becomes standard V8 then???

This is distinct from the whole 5.0 litre Jag engine then? Surely that is a furphy...

PM sent.

[mongoloid]

Originally Posted by Fev

what about Mercede's and BMW?

I meant american manufacturers, i knew what i was talking about

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Paxton

Swordsman - there is a new V8 coming. 5 Litres, Direct injection and Ecoboost. It'll be first seen on the next Mustang.

Ecoboost V8 may not even happen, its up in the air although it has been considered. The standard Mustang 5.0 will make around 300kw with the DI version will supposed make around 330kw, which would make it perfect for XR8, with the DI version for FPV.

All alloy. It not just a stroked 4.6, it's slightly bigger in both bore and stroke I believe, 7000 rpm maybe. Its a thouroughly revised Modular, due in 2010 Mustang, which should be on the market mid to late 2009.

[Paxton]

Bossxr8 - perfect timing for 123 wouldn't you say. The modular platform has won awards every year since its release, so I don't blame Ford for finally revising it. Hurricane had a Stop Work Order placed on it not too long ago, so this seems to be the logical route. GM will eventually have to revise their engines to make them more economical (and fix their woeful power to capacity ratios). Ford are on the front seat in this respect.

[Carby]

[QUOTE=Paxton] It was a comedy of errors from the beginning that platform, as it was deemed too big for anything, Commodore, Statesman and anything American. Ford is lucky that they could watch Holden make the mistakes and then make their decisions later. More info here.

As quoted from Wikipedia


"The Zeta architecture is very flexible and can accommodate a wide variety of automotive design features such as wheelbase length, ride height, windshield rake and roof line." seems to make a mockery of your "too big for anything statement"

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Carby

As quoted from Wikipedia


"The Zeta architecture is very flexible and can accommodate a wide variety of automotive design features such as wheelbase length, ride height, windshield rake and roof line." seems to make a mockery of your "too big for anything statement"

That wikipedia article also notes that as of early this month, Zeta is dead. Now part of the reason why it is dead is not just because GM (like Ford) is worried about weight/size of RWD cars and fuel consumption, but also because it is actually a relatively difficult platform to engineer into different cars. Holden will have you believe it is just a case of new body on Zeta (VE) platform, but it isnt. Sure putting a ute or wagon on the VE platform is easy (same wheelbase/suspension etc.), in the same way putting Territory on BA was (relatively) easy.

But the reality is that unlike more flexible platforms (e.g. Ford/Volvo Focus C1) VE is quite expensive with its current suspensions (esp Rear) and can't be easilly 'cut and shut' down to smaller RWD cars. Make no bones about it, check the dimensions on the VE (let alone statesman) and it is HUGE. Wheelbase/track barely fits under the commodore body (hence those wheelarches). The VE is a stylists car, and once the dimensions with those flairs were factored in, the engineers basically pushed the wheelbase/track out to fit them (who wouldn't, easy way to benefit handling). Problem with this is other GM cars don't need that footprint, and the flairs don't work on everything. For pricier (e.g. Camaro) car Zeta is ok, but for everything else it is too expensive and too big. The statesman platform is only good for limos, hence the buicks going to China.

Ford may face a similar problem RE cost with the FG suspension, but the platform is closer in size and cheaper to produce. It is also more flexible, with AWD proof design and option for 60/40 split seating etc. Truth is Holden went their own way back in 2002-2004 period, then GM came along and tried to 'integrate' the VE to become Zeta. They weren't involved from the start (wheras a Ford GRWD/Huntsman would) hence their issues. With enough work you can make any platform fit, but at some stage you just end up with too much work/cost to be worth it. This is what killed off Zeta and i think what paxton is alluding to.