Hybrid Taxi's

[Fairlane]

Well ive watching the news lately with a fellow with a Lexus RX400h winging about the NSW governments unwilligness to certify hybrid as appopriate taxi's.

Now today i see that the government will approve Prius in the fleet.

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...ID=45936&vf=12

OK, but i cant see hybrid taxi will cope with taxi service and even if they do when they reach the end of fleet life after say 4 years, they will need to be crushed with their lead batteries.

The news story the other day on channel 9 by the way, made the impression that our current taxis where planet killing tools of destruction- Well id wager that an LPG Falcons would have to be one of the most enviromentally frinedly car there is- What other car can run LPG cutting smog emissions whilst in service, put up with Taxi service for 7 years without needing to be scrapped and then live as an ex-taxi for a private owner after that.

Guess this aint really a great story- But whats everyones opinions on Hybrid taxis

[DivHunter]

Doesn't the Prius have a life of about 100,000Ks?

[Fairlane]

Well they warranty the batteries for 100,000klms or 5 years. But they say its designed for the life of the car or ten years- So that does that mean 200,000klms? and that guarantee wouldnt cover taxis

I dont think anyone replaced a Prius battery yet in Australia but i dont think anyones done 200,000klms.

[XR Martin]

LPG Falcon is cheaper to run than a Prius so I dont see what the big commotion is.

[gz1]

Hybrid cars are NOT eco-friendly. That is a myth. When you take into account the environmental harm done by the batteries, i.e. manufacturing and recycling of the battery itself and the chemicals used, the world is better off with petrol cars. If that was not the case then hybrid manufacturers and proponents would be publishing papers that show the complete cycle. Yet whenever this subject is brought up both manufacturers and supporters avoid it or quickly change topic.
For high mileage cars like taxis I still think you can't beat an LPG powered car yet. At least not until safe, boot size, nuclear reactors are invented.

[DBourne]

Originally Posted by gz1

Hybrid cars are NOT eco-friendly. That is a myth. When you take into account the environmental harm done by the batteries, i.e. manufacturing and recycling of the battery itself and the chemicals used, the world is better off with petrol cars. If that was not the case then hybrid manufacturers and proponents would be publishing papers that show the complete cycle. Yet whenever this subject is brought up both manufacturers and supporters avoid it or quickly change topic.
For high mileage cars like taxis I still think you can't beat an LPG powered car yet. At least not until safe, boot size, nuclear reactors are invented.

only problem is that you have a brain, eco extremists dont. so they have the set mindset that all petrol or LPG cars are the devil.

[XRNIL8]

Business (the taxi industry) will soon realise that the hybrid is not a suitable car in their industry anyway, so it will be a rare car to be seen as a cab. Given that city cabs are constantly stop and go, does this not reduce the effectiveness of being a hybrid?

With the extra load not only with continual stop start ... but the extra electrical load with lighting and trip computer and security cameras etc. etc .... I think LPG in a cab looks all the better. :togo:

[Geoff EL 4.0]

hmm good point. my humanities teacher at school is always going on about hybrid cars and how they are better so i will say that to her i dont like her very much and i always give her and argue with her when i can. Shes a vegan for the environment. "dont eat meat its comes from animals who fart and put methane into the environment" she says. shes a funny one :P

[XR6_190]

I have to agree that a Falcon with LPG or even a Camry/ Avalon/ Aurion with LPG is a much better solution as a taxi. They have got a much longer life, They emit less CO2 than the equivalent sedan running on normal unleaded, have much more space than a Prius/Civic Hybrid even when you count in the LPG tank, and unless LPG prices skyrocket will be cheaper to run/ maintain.

Makes you wonder why New York City has mandated that all taxis in NYC must be Hybrid by 2012

[XRNIL8]

Originally Posted by XR6_190

Makes you wonder why New York City has mandated that all taxis in NYC must be Hybrid by 2012

I suspect that because the political influences are made by people donating cash ;) Political Lobby groups there I understand (may be corrected) throw a lot of money around to get things changed to suit their agenda and not neccessarily the best interest of the community.:

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by XRNIL8

Business (the taxi industry) will soon realise that the hybrid is not a suitable car in their industry anyway, so it will be a rare car to be seen as a cab. Given that city cabs are constantly stop and go, does this not reduce the effectiveness of being a hybrid?

With the extra load not only with continual stop start ... but the extra electrical load with lighting and trip computer and security cameras etc. etc .... I think LPG in a cab looks all the better. :togo:

Not sure about other hybrids but Priuses are actually at their best in stop start city driving. To simplify it, they recharge the batteries using the energy created when the brakes are used, meaning the electric motor gets more use than the petrol. Out on the highway, cruising at 100k's etc.. you're not braking as much, so it relies more on its petrol engine which makes it about as economical as any other mid sized car.

[Poetic Justice]

Goodness me, Steffo hasn't posted here yet!

[RG]

The majority of Taxi's in Cairns are Prius'. But then again they have a lot of Honda Civic's too.

[XR Martin]

It takes 50% more energy to build a Prius over a Hummer H2. :

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

[XR Martin]

This is the lovely factory that has to smelt the Nickel for the Prius' batteries

[Jastel]

The majority of Taxis in Cairns are NOT Prius's, there are about 30 of them or about one quarter of the fleet, there is ONE Honda Civic Hybrid, there is ONE petrol Commodore, a couple of petrol Avalons, and the rest are 4 cylinder Camrys, diesel Vans or Falcons

The price of LPG (and to a lesser extent petrol) is the main reason for the popularity of them up here. Gas is 75 to 82 cpl, petrol is $1.33 ish
There are only about 20 LPG Falcons up here due to the high LPG cost
A Camry on petrol costs about the same to run as a LPG Falcon

They are actually doing a better job and lasting longer than most people expected, the oldest one here has over 300000km on it now and has not given very much trouble
However they do still break down and wear out and need servicing just like other cars and it is hard to get parts for, or find a mechanic that can fix a Falcon up here let alone a Prius. The high voltage electrics need specialised servicing and tools, computers etc
One waited 8 weeks for a bumper, even the small sized tyres are harder to find. A wheel alignment takes 3-4 hours. One was written off when it was 1 week old after a minor accident, that would have been repairable but no panel beater knew how (or wanted) to fix it.

The big problem is they cost at least $40000 new, whereas you can buy ex govt Falcons for $12000, at auctions I have been to nobody bought a second hand Prius for $25000 they want, the economics of it dont add up

The drivers are a bit unerved by them at first, no engine sound, too quiet, a bit fiddly to drive but some like them some don't, they ALL say the biggest problem is explaining to the customers how they work, what that button does etc, annoys them no end.

From the customers side first it's a novelty, a bit of "green" credibility but when they want to take their luggage to the airport or 4 big blokes get in suddenly they all want a Falcon again.

The much hyped fuel economy is not as good as it sounds, especially when in the hands of taxi drivers who think they are in Bathurst, you can get good economy from them if you drive sensibly but LPG and petrol are the same in that regard.

In Qld there is a list of vehicles approved to be Taxis, must comply with design rules, be crash tested etc, the guy here who put on the Honda Civic was originally not allowed to put it in because it was not on the list

This is probably what the article on NSW is about, now they are allowed to be taxis, before they were not.

As XR6 said, New York has ruled that taxis must be hybrid, taking 12000 cars off the road might do some environmental good (at a smog level anyway) in NY but in Aust it won't make a lot of difference, just make taxi fares dearer.

If you want to run a Prius thats fine but they are still a long way from the perfect car they are made out to be by greenies

[Dave_au]

I suspect that the Skoda Octiva diesel might make an appearance as a cab one day in Australia, when they get over the "not built here" factor for the standard cab fleet.

The Skoda's are everywhere in Europe as cabs.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

This is the lovely factory that has to smelt the Nickel for the Prius' batteries

Among other things. Also to quote wiki: The Mail on Sunday newspaper retracted an article linking Toyota's nickel-metal hydride battery (Ni-MH battery) production to environmental damage said to have been caused by nickel mining at a facility now owned by CVRD Inco at Sudbury, "in order to prevent further misinterpretation," and publishing in its place a rebuttal letter from Dave Rado. Rado accuses the article of inaccuracy, and notes that nickel is used for countless other purposes and that any damage occurred more than 30 years ago, long before the Prius was made.

[Piotr]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

It takes 50% more energy to build a Prius over a Hummer H2. :

That articel has been discredited so many times its not funny.

[chevypower]

Everyone talks about these Lead Acid batteries. Get rid of the Lead Acids, and start using something different. Fast-charging Lithium Polymer should be the minimum requirement.

[Falcon_Crazy]

In the Darwin to Adelaide challange, a diesel hydundai emitted less Co2 and sued less fuel than the Prius..