BF Vs VE - What to expect?

[Phoon Hoon]

Just reading on LS1 forums how the VE is gunna be so good that no one will buy a Falcon anymore (their words, not mine) and was wondering where the VE would surpass the current BF.

Trying to ignore subjective things such "it will look better", I've come up with the 5 following key areas for us to discuss, with some thoughts of my own.

Engines: I can't see a huge VE improvement as they are already running the donks in their current line up. Some small gains in power, perhaps?

Chassis: Obviously, this will improve in the VE... but how much "better" will it be than the BF?

Suspension: I've heard that the VE suspension will be the duck's nuts (again, from Holden media and fans) but will it be a better unit than the control blade we have?

Transmission: They may get something as good as the ZF, but there's no way it will be better.

Extras: This is where I expect a big jump from the current models. They'll throw a heap of stuff into all models, including, better stereos, bigger wheels, DSC, leather on sports/luxury models, sports steering wheels, climate control, etc, etc. This can be quite easily matched by the Falcon through the BF2 upgrade.

So, what are your thoughts? Should we be worried?

[Bluehoon]

The real interest will be FPV's response to HSV.....

End of the day there will be the taxi / company car, the low end sports, sports and luxury.

Still yet to see Holden produce a motor to catch the 6T or F6......

[MightyXR6Turbo]

Well there is no real word at all about Turbo engines in the Holden line up, so XR6T is off on its on there.

The Alloytechs from all accounts wont have an increase, infact because of Euro emission standards at January 1, 2006, the Alloytechs actually all decreased in power.

Chassis rigidity will be an issue, the car does not have a welded in radiator support rail, it is part of a detachable nose cone. Also as with all current Commodores, the firewall is glued into channels, and then a set of 4 bolts (two either side) are used to pull the A pillars in a few millimetres into the firewall.

Of course the VE will be a worthy opponent, it will be vastly better than the VZ, but it certainly wont run rings around the BF at all. Also from all accounts, the VE should be heavier than BF, so that works in our advantage as well.

[Smoke Pursuit]

HAHA no one will buy Falcons anymore?

Ergh people still bought ELs when the VT was released, and I can tell you they will keep buying BFs when the VE is released to.

Fleets etc are more then likely going to be buying more BFs then VEs in the early days due to the fact that Ford will have more room to play with margins and more incentives. The BA / BF is nearly 4 years old, they have covered their asses with respect to the costs associated with developing it, they have more room to play with pricing then Holden, as holden has to try and recover all the R&D and development costs. Im sure it will affect Ford the first few months, sales numbers from holden will more then likely be 2000+ more a month due to the fact that they will be running out VZ left overs (with HUGE incentives) and selling the new ones to, but by Jan 07 the huge difference should decrease signifcantly.

[JPFS1]

I have been contributing over on LS1 also, but they don't warm to my comments for some reason.

I do try and provide unbiased information - particularly the Ford info (especially in more recent times and continuing), it can't get any closer to the real info. I was able to access info on Holden through certain stages of VE development, but not for the last year, but major fundamental things don't change in that time frame.

Should you be worried about VE... mechanically NO... technically there will obviously be advantages but that's about where it stops.

Ofcourse media are going to need plenty of tissues to clean up their mess, but we all knew that?

[Cobra]

It will be a good car no doubt, probably slightly better than BF. They will run the 6L80 trans, which is meant to be pretty good. They will have a very good IRS, and probably have more standard features on all their models.

I think the weight is going to hurt them. Apparantly it's going to be 150kg more than the VZ. HSV's will need to be 320kw+ just to stay even with what they have now. God knows how that sluggish V6 is going to cope with out a power upgrade aswell.

Overall I'm not too worried. Whatever they do, it won't match the 08 Orion anyway!

[flappist]

Of course they are going to talk up the "coming messiah".......

The only observation I can make on that statement is that they must be VERY worried about the current state of play. I cannot remember the last time commodore won anything in magazine tests (or V8SCs _2.

I do, however, remember the "edited LS1 with 'zorst & CAI, does 13s, thrash es all fords, so cheap, performance bargain" boasts that abounded before blackoak was cracked.

The VE will herald a whole new era, like the VT did, and I am sure that they will be competitive.
Without the power to weight advantage held for so long with VT-Z line I wonder if they will still be as quick over the 400m.

Shades of T3/BA GT.............

[Stoney!]

The VE will have a power increase, it is said to be 200kw or just under.

The Gm gearboxes are world class as are ZF's, the 5 speed is a great unit and im sure the 6 speed will be just as good if not better.

The new commodore is going to weight in approx 120kg over the old one. Which mean it will only be Approx 1688kg Compared to the BF at 1694kg, but the commodore still may weight more, it may also be the extra features, one article reading the extra airbags (side/curtain)

The engine has unergone some modifications, the VZ was simply a test muel for the engine so they could get feedback and make changes for the VE. Including modifications to take that annoying wheezy sound away, which is basically the only part of the engine you can hear when putting around town or urban streets.

Rear suspension I have heard is supposed to surpass that of an E-class merc for its setup and technology, though im yet to believe it, and the better of the two supension sytem coming out will only feture in the sports and luxo models.

Things like curtain airbags as standard, bose sound system, standard ESP and im sure many other things, will have ford worried, they will fight back but can they afford it without jacking up the price by 2 grand like holden will be....

Time will tell.

Stoney!

[MoreHPformyXR6]

The 380 was suppose to be the bee's knees when that was released. I have no doubt the VE will be a good car & the standard equipmebt will probally surpass the BF but Ford can counter some what with BF Mark II.

[HSE2]

Well if VE isn't a huge set up then they will be in trouble so we should expect the Holden product to be a better quality unit. In terms of technology I don’t think VE will have that much on us.

It’s a new car so there for it should be better. We should accept that to a degree. What we should also do is help Ford. Last week, Go auto reported that Ford will be going to town on the VE as they have until Xmas to finalise Orion. This opportunity wasn't there for AU where it was locked in before VT was launched.

As Ford dissect VE, so to should we. Tell Ford what they have right and what they got wrong and what we expect in the next Falcon. Ve threads of the future should keep these points in mind.

While Ford might have the product under the microscope they will most certainly be watching the responses on this forum. Make those opinions and observations count for the benefit of our product.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Curtain airbags (territory) and DSC are already fitted to some of the falcon lineup.

ID say BF II will have Curtain airbags in some models (taken from territory) and also DSC across the range.

Ford have more margin the Holden does with the VE< so they can afford to not jack up the price, just make less money as they have less initial outlay costs!

[MoreHPformyXR6]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

Things like curtain airbags as standard, bose sound system, standard ESP and im sure many other things, will have ford worried, they will fight back but can they afford it without jacking up the price by 2 grand like holden will be....



Stoney!

Is it know what RRP for the VE will be? If it does go up say 2 grand (wouldnt that make the Falcon more appealing to some 2 grand is a fair bit of petrol) Havent Falcon & Commodore RRP been fairly closley alligned for many years know. But Bose sound system standard sounds nice.

[XR8MAD]

Hi everyone.

I saw a VE trundling down Chapel street last week. It had the covers on it, both back and front, but from what saw it looks kinda bulky especially around the boot area. So maybe the asthetics arent that great. As for extras, well really, what has Holden got to offer that Ford dosnt. Nothing. Just another car that will be top of the line until Ford knock it off its perch again. Im not worried about VE. Afterall, its just another Commodore.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Phoon Hoon

Just reading on LS1 forums how the VE is gunna be so good that no one will buy a Falcon anymore (their words, not mine) and was wondering where the VE would surpass the current BF.

Was this the same genius that said the V6 adventurea would destroy the Territory??

If you look at what you get with the BF Holden is behind and need to catch up. Now the VE should be surperior to the BF but Holden have hyped this car up so much I think it's going to be a dissapointment.

[COTTIES 69wgn]

aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha what a horible looking car the VE is check out these pics that has it spotted on the road ppl have photo shoped the chequers so ya can see clearly, looks so lame, hell looks euro







hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! They aint got nothin!!!

[Phoon Hoon]

Hahaha, XR8MAD. A good first post!

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by LSTerritoryGhia

Curtain airbags (territory) and DSC are already fitted to some of the falcon lineup.

ID say BF II will have Curtain airbags in some models (taken from territory) and also DSC across the range.

Ford have more margin the Holden does with the VE< so they can afford to not jack up the price, just make less money as they have less initial outlay costs!

Curtain airbags won't fit in Falcon, only the side airbags which are different. Ford won't get curtain airbags until Orion is released. All Ford really need to do is put side airbags as standard and DSC on all petrol models and they will match Holden for equipment, will still being at least $1000-$1500 cheaper than the VE which is supposed to be pretty pricey at around 38k.

As the BF has fuel economy basically line ball with the VZ with the extra weight of VE the Falcon will suddenly be more economical which will help no end, especially if Ford make the 6 speed auto more widely available and work on the tune for even better economy. The VE won't be the big thing Holden fans are lead to believe, it will only just catch up to the BF in most areas, even though it should sell well it won't be a big as a success as the VT was. It will continue to outsell Falcon but the margins won't increase too much, nothing Ford won't expect anyway. They know how good Orion will be so they don't need to worry too much, and if they can really crunch the numbers hard enough it will undercut the VE by a fair price margin, giving it a nice advantage.

[Falcon Freak]

My two bits worth about the VE.

Styling: will be slab sided and high waistline with stubby boot (similar to the Mitsubishi 380) on the rear. Whether it is a design which polarises people is yet to be seen

Engine: The same engine as released in the VZ. Not a bad engine but isn't as good as it could have been. Will have approximately 200kW of power to overcome power loses due to Euro III and to also overcome the increased curb weight. No turbo engine.

Transmission: A big and overdue improvement. 5-speed auto standard on poverty pack models. Will allow the Alloytech engine to perfom better than the 4 speed clunker used in the VZ.

Suspension: Probably the biggest improvement will be in this area. Expect the VE to be a very good handling car and a significant improvement over the VZ

Quality: Big question considering Holden have sourced many VE parts from cheaper overseas based suppliers.

Summary: The main question is whether the increased kerb weight will negate the engine and transmission improvements. I suspect the car will handle well but there will be negligable improvements in acceleration or fuel economy. Big plus is standard ESP on all VE models. This will really screw Ford.

BF's advantages: I6 still the better engine (but will be stuck with 4 speed auto until the all new model). Only other area worth noting is that Ford has lost it's biggest disadvantage which it has had for many years - where the Falcon was heavier then the equivalent Commodore model. It appears that BF and VE will have similar weights.

FF

[Aussie_Geo]

Well this is the first time I have contributed but bugger me from all the pics I have seen it looks like a Mitsu 380 clone :hihi:

Peter

[MoreHPformyXR6]

Originally Posted by COTTIES 69wgn

I dont mind this picture I quite like it actually (Im sure the VE will be more sucessfull than the 380)

[EL_futuraistic]

from readings in MOTOR and CARSGUIDE the new VE is to feature the latest technology of a 4spd Auto gearbox

Geez, i bet for is trembling in their boots



come on........... The VE is supposedly an ALL NEW vehicle as opposed to VZ and BA/BF falcons which are built on VT and AU platforms respictively.


Ford and Holden have always been on par, and consider the ECOTEC lasted close to 12 years I doubt the current ALLOYTECH will be any different

(here ends holden bagging session :P)

[baboon]

The VE will have 6L of V8 and sound OK and go OK. The BF V8 will sound better and will go OK. I think ford needs to improve on the already powerful BOSS engine. Hopefully more research and development in BF2 V8s will make our DOHC's outperform the 6L pushrods. Ford needs to put a lot of effort into its N/A V8s, its where I think we can really close the door on Holden.

[Kenster]

the only best way to judge is to test drive the VE when it comes out and see how it goes thou in looks the BF Falcon won it hands down just unsure about the handling and what mechanically problem the car will face and how many recalls it will get

[Iphido]

I agree with falcon freak. The Falcon I6 is just a better engine. That alone will keep things in control.

BFII main tactic is new styling on the front of the XT-Ghias.

BF mechanicals will carry over to Orion basically unchanged. So don't expect much other than tweaking.

[charles_wif_xf]

I will reserve judgement until I get a drive of the VE (which should be soonish, all things going well...)

[FGX-351]

Model list: Omega, Berlina, SV6, SS, Calais, SS V-series, Calais V-series. 4 speed for Omega and maybe Berlina(cant remember off the top of my head) SV6 gets the 5 speed auto and aisin manual box, SS, SSV, Calais & Calais-V get the 6-speed GM auto.
V6 power will not exceed 200kw, no turbo models, no displacement on demand for series 1. All this is from the VE section at www.justcommodores.com.au

[Stoney!]

A couple of point, I simply posted what I have heard from reliable sources, and din't go around making statements I couldn't back up such as the I6 is simply a better engine??? What makes you say that, thy are making a lot of modifications to this engine for the new commodore

ALso somone said that the fuel economy WILL increase, with holden spending many more months in making changes to the alloytech and the gear ratios of the 4, 5 &6 speed gearbox, how do you know its going to deffinalty be more. Be prepared for a shock, and an even bigger shock when they dump direct petrol injection on it in the VE II

They are not going to pile all the goodoes on the VE otherwise people will think, why would I bother buying the VEII, same as displacement on demand, wouldn't surprise me if they don't bring that out till Series2

From what I can see it's a nice looking car, and what has been said by holden is that it will be a high quality car, because its more than just a car built for australians now, its built for the world, more so than the VZ even.

It will be interesting, but then we don't have long till we see it, and don't have long after than till we get to hear what its like, then after that you can go and test drive one.

Stoney!

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

Be prepared for a shock, and an even bigger shock when they dump direct petrol injection on it in the VE II

That doesn't shock me as I already know about that one.

FF

[Hally]

Some of you blokes just don't get it. The thing about which car is better doesn't really matter. We are car enthusiasts (and a minority as motorists) and have certain aspects of a car that are important to us, namely performance, handling etc. The average 35 - 65 year who buys, or has one of these cars bought for them, don't give a rats about which is quicker, goes around a corner quicker etc etc. All they want is something that they see as relatively stylish, has plenty of room, good features and is seen as respectable in the company car park but not to snobby to put people off.

We can debate which car is better all day, but when it all comes down to it the Commodore has out sold the Falcaon for the last 10 years (except for maybe 2 months?). This because out in the general populus Ford does not have the same brand loyalty as Holden. And then again I bet Holden had Toyotas brand loyalty......

Another thing, is I think that the BA/BF is a great car, but IMHO it is bland to look at and there is no differentiation between all the models (especially FPV's compared to XR's). Some HSV are butt ugly, but they don't get mistaken for SS's.

[COTTIES 69wgn]

Originally Posted by Hally

Some of you blokes just don't get it. The thing about which car is better doesn't really matter. We are car enthusiasts (and a minority as motorists) and have certain aspects of a car that are important to us, namely performance, handling etc. The average 35 - 65 year who buys, or has one of these cars bought for them, don't give a rats about which is quicker, goes around a corner quicker etc etc. All they want is something that they see as relatively stylish, has plenty of room, good features and is seen as respectable in the company car park but not to snobby to put people off.

We do get it. Its just Been as we are motor enthusiasts on this website not 35-65 yr old people who wouldnt actually be on a web site like this cause they dont give a damn about the performance and handeling side things, but cause we are enthusiasts we like to know all this information. That is why there is a thread like this open for all info and descusions on the car...

We can debate which car is better all day, but when it all comes down to it the Commodore has out sold the Falcaon for the last 10 years (except for maybe 2 months?). This because out in the general populus Ford does not have the same brand loyalty as Holden. And then again I bet Holden had Toyotas brand loyalty......

the genral public they maybe loyal half the reason been is that they been told from word go that holden is australian, be an aussie drive one, even though most of there cars come from asian and euro countrys and thats inc the commodores.
Im not saying ford doesnt do this but they dont thrive on promoting them selves as all australian.

Another thing, is I think that the BA/BF is a great car, but IMHO it is bland to look at and there is no differentiation between all the models (especially FPV's compared to XR's). Some HSV are butt ugly, but they don't get mistaken for SS's.

Each to there own i geuse but there are a hell of alot off differences between FPV and an XR, The reason why I dis like the new holdens look VY is the whole car is out of wack. You got the smooth rounded body lines that looks great with the VT front and rear but put a jagered shape front and rear lights grill and other, just clashes hugely...

Thats just me other people have different views and i respect that...