Skaife calls for Speed limit increases on Victorian Freeways...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by rodderz

There will always be that element of a few who won't and aren't willing to learn, but an overhaul and adjustment to our licensing and driver education system is 50% better than what is currently in place. What's going to be better, put up with our current crop of drivers who seem to be getting worse and disrespecting others more, or do something about it?

Pollies won't do anything about it as the revenue from law-breaking drivers makes them a lot of money, but push a lot of pressure on them like what Skaife is doing and they will, particularly if it means votes in an election

You wont change the current crop, its too late...
The only hope is a gradual and progressive change of conditioning of what's considered acceptable road behaviour and attitude..
Only then will i even remotely begin to feel safe sharing roads with people doing 140+ KPH...
I agree with Skaife in theory, he has some great ideas, but the problem lies with those who disregard common sense and proper attitude...

Frankly these kinds of people scare me at 80kph... It will take decades to change...

[g220ba]

Personally i think everyone should stop worrying about any speed increases, It's not going happen in the near to long term future. What should be focused on more heavily is stronger driver training along with better enforcement of existing road rules and better roads (The sooner it starts the sooner things improve).

Unfortunetly all we'll end up with is an enquiry followed by a report, then an enquiry into the report and so it'll go on. More tax payer will be wasted meaning more speed cameras, all the while the government can continue to say they're doing something about road safety.

The good thing is Mark has opened up some good discussion into road safety. Hopefully given time it'll lead somewhere.

[MO]

Originally Posted by 84ltd

Personally i think everyone should stop worrying about any speed increases, It's not going happen in the near to long term future. What should be focused on more heavily is stronger driver training along with better enforcement of existing road rules and better roads (The sooner it starts the sooner things improve).

Unfortunetly all we'll end up with is an enquiry followed by a report, then an enquiry into the report and so it'll go on. More tax payer will be wasted meaning more speed cameras, all the while the government can continue to say they're doing something about road safety.

The good thing is Mark has opened up some good discussion into road safety. Hopefully given time it'll lead somewhere.

Which is exactly what Skaife said...start with driving training and attitude and then the roads etc.

[rodderz]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You wont change the current crop, its too late...
The only hope is a gradual and progressive change of conditioning of what's considered acceptable road behaviour and attitude..

Yes and that's the only way of implementing it. Sure the current drivers will be in the "ya can't teach an old dog new tricks" category, but you have to start somewhere, with the young people still at school and currently unlicensed.

Put more police on the road as well. That way the govt still gets their revenue, but a face talking to the offender, and letting them know just what they have done wrong, is much better than a camera who says nothing. Most police are very human and good judges of character and excuses, they won't be as intolerant as a camera either

[MO]

Originally Posted by rodderz

Yes and that's the only way of implementing it. Sure the current drivers will be in the "ya can't teach an old dog new tricks" category, but you have to start somewhere, with the young people still at school and currently unlicensed.

Put more police on the road as well. That way the govt still gets their revenue, but a face talking to the offender, and letting them know just what they have done wrong, is much better than a camera who says nothing. Most police are very human and good judges of character and excuses, they won't be as intolerant as a camera either

That is spot on.

[MAD]

Skaife's Idea of using stimulus to get new drivers in to newer cars is about the only way the road toll will be reduced. You cant stop a someone being a douche. It's a spur of the moment thing. What you can control is the safety of the car they are in.
I know not many people here want this to be the solution because it means we dont get a green light to speed again, but facts are facts.

I hate the fact that the road 'toll', used for TV advertising, only measures you when you're dead. What about the thousands that are seriously injured and require assistance for the remainder of their life? Is that not a toll? Simple answer, no, because if the TAC were to use the real toll, we wouldnt be seeing this so called 'reduction thanks to speed cameras', instead the picture would be painted as 'incidents are increasing constantly, but less people are being killed thanks to advancements in car safety'.

Road etiquette is something that needs to be focused on. Whether it helps the road toll or not, it would make for a far more enjoyable drive, and would improve the 'friendliness' of society as well. If you have something done nice for you, you feel good and you tend to want to do the same for someone else. A large percentage of people spend at least 1.5hrs per day in traffic, that's a long time to have people do nice things for you and for you to do nice things for people. They may be small, like letting someone merge, but they all have meaning.

[Fireblade]

+1, spot on MAD.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by MAD

Road etiquette is something that needs to be focused on. Whether it helps the road toll or not, it would make for a far more enjoyable drive, and would improve the 'friendliness' of society as well. If you have something done nice for you, you feel good and you tend to want to do the same for someone else. A large percentage of people spend at least 1.5hrs per day in traffic, that's a long time to have people do nice things for you and for you to do nice things for people. They may be small, like letting someone merge, but they all have meaning.

Agree. This would require a seismic shift in attitude though. I find the more commuting I do to work, the worse my driving becomes. I think this is caused by this influence of poor driving around me. People pushing in, cutting off others, tearing down the left lane to get 100m ahead.

I wouldn't have too many complaints about a government funded advertising program aimed at improving people etiquette on the roads.

One point that Skaife made was that people being schooled by parents results in bad habits being passed on. I believe that mandating something like 10 hours of accredited training combined with parents being required to sit an exam to be endorsed to train learners for the balance of the time would help somewhat.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by cs123

I find the more commuting I do to work, the worse my driving becomes. I think this is caused by this influence of poor driving around me. People pushing in, cutting off others, tearing down the left lane to get 100m ahead.

This is what my idea would rely on, working the other way of course. Environmental influence plays a huge part in shaping a persons attitude. You tend become similar to those that you surround yourself with.

The hardest part is getting people to recognise that you just did something nice for them without chasing them down and telling them... haha.

I cant stand when I slow down to allow someone to merge, or move right to allow them to merge and get absolutely no recognition because the other driver had no idea what was going on around them apart from what was 3 feet in front of their bonnet. Completely blazé just pottering along. The amount of times I have seen near incidents when people dont see that the left lane is ending is staggering. Most of the ones I see the left lane becomes an emergency lane, so they dont run up a curb, luckily.

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by mrfordfairmont

well the kids that are getting their licences are being taught to get the licence not how to drive responsibly...

Right! It is true. For some reason we are fixated into teaching our kids (me included) on how not to get pinged speeding as the main priority. P platers in this country just have not got a chance imho. I really need to start teaching how not to have an accident now instead though. It is just that I know that my attitude has also changed over the past decade because of the overuse of speed cameras and their mantra of "speed cameras save lives" as well. At least we do not have to look at that ridiculous "attack on our intelligence sign" that suggest just that every time we pass a mobile speed camera, at least not in S.A. anymore.

Originally Posted by mrfordfairmont

we don't need more speed as just about everyone drives 10kms over the limit..

Maybe, but what has really happened is that speed limits have only gone one way over the past 20 odd years while the use of speed cameras has gone the other. Also cars are much better and even some roads in this country are now world standard as well. You do the math

Originally Posted by mrfordfairmont

yes germany is working but their autobarn is fairly straight unlike out bent highways...

Wrong! the autobahns actually have bends in them so that drivers are actually forced into participation. This is one of the main criticisms of the Interstates designed in the 50's in the US.

The roads over in Europe are really very similar to our road like the freeway leaving Adelaide from about Mt Barker on towards Murray Bridge and Tailem Bend. The only real obstacle on this one is the single lane bridge that has stood alone (in typical S.A. fashion) with single passing lanes across the Murray since the early 70's, and there would also need to be a third lane to be exactly the same as the autobahn. They are also similar to the Ring road (in design not location) and Geelong road as well. Even the Calder was good when it was first was re-done 20 years ago but that has been left to ruin in some places now. I just drove back from Sydney and I have to say that the The Hume from St Marys turn off to the turn off to Wagga Wagga is just fantastic. Probably the best in Australia and easily rivals some of Europe's best roads. I think some people need to understand that the autobahn in Germany is only one part of the road infrastructure in Europe. Much of the freeways in Germany are indeed 120kph. One section had overhead speed cameras everywhere and was absolute crap to drive on but still was 120 kph while in France it is 130kph. The freeway that runs through the Champaign region is almost identical to our freeway from Mt Barker to Tailem Bend as I previously mentioned. They have signs that reads 130 or 110 when it rains.

I agree that an open limit may not suit every road application or even any roads in Australia at all, but some of these roads could easily cope with 130kph (cue keepleft) wilt little or no upgrading now. This would include roads like the Stuart Hwy across the Hay plains etc. Limits still could be set at tunnels, bridges, winding cuttings etc., as they are in Europe as well.

Mark Skaife and others before are simply stating that on some roads there is a case for opening up some speed limits where conditions are suitable. Those conditions can and should include better driver training as well as better road infrusructure. Common sense really needs to prevail and maybe we really need to establish a truly national Motoring body made up of road safety advocates to finance ministers but also other people like Mark Skaife to truly take an objective look at what could and even should be done. Otherwise you will still have the same road safety advocates and finance people in charge of today making the constant lowing of speed limit decisions into the future and beyond.

Sorry mrfordfairmont as this was not intentionally just aimed at your post only, it is just that your post made some good reading and worthy of responding to.

Bud Bud

[flappist]

Well this "attitude" subject is popular so I will add my observations.

I have driven in every state of Australia over the last 30 years and with the exception of a few small idiosyncracies mostly everyone drives very similarly.

One of of the most interesting exceptions is/was in NT with following too closely and speed.

All along the highways everywhere except NT in situations where there was a slow vehicle being followed in places where passing was unsafe the cars tend to bunch up closely and constantly move out to see if it is clear to push past as soon as they can.
On the NT highways everyone seemed to stay a fair way apart and did not push until it was very clear.
My theory is that "If there is no limit to how fast you can go you do not need to be in a hurry".

The second observation was that no one ever overtook or passed at light speed. Regardless of what speed I was travelling at (80-250) I would see vehicles come flying up behind me, slow down to maybe 30-40 faster than me and then when clear zoom off.
The same with oncoming vehicles. They would slow significantly (as would I) and then zoom off afterwards. e.g. I would be doing maybe 200, see an oncoming car, slow to 130-140 and then back to 200 when they were past.

Attitude is caused by environment and the more stressy that driving becomes due to constant watching of speed signs and instruments and the general feeling of "taking too long" rather than the road and other vehicles the more wound up the driver gets.

There is no such thing as road rage when you are happy, unstressed and enjoying the drive........

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by MAD

Skaife's Idea of using stimulus to get new drivers in to newer cars is about the only way the road toll will be reduced. You cant stop a someone being a douche. It's a spur of the moment thing. What you can control is the safety of the car they are in.
I know not many people here want this to be the solution because it means we dont get a green light to speed again, but facts are facts.

I hate the fact that the road 'toll', used for TV advertising, only measures you when you're dead. What about the thousands that are seriously injured and require assistance for the remainder of their life? Is that not a toll? Simple answer, no, because if the TAC were to use the real toll, we wouldnt be seeing this so called 'reduction thanks to speed cameras', instead the picture would be painted as 'incidents are increasing constantly, but less people are being killed thanks to advancements in car safety'.

Road etiquette is something that needs to be focused on. Whether it helps the road toll or not, it would make for a far more enjoyable drive, and would improve the 'friendliness' of society as well. If you have something done nice for you, you feel good and you tend to want to do the same for someone else. A large percentage of people spend at least 1.5hrs per day in traffic, that's a long time to have people do nice things for you and for you to do nice things for people. They may be small, like letting someone merge, but they all have meaning.

rep points added for this post. Spot on!!!

[LUXO_8]

Originally Posted by blueoval

rep points added for this post. Spot on!!!

Likewise.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by MAD

I hate the fact that the road 'toll', used for TV advertising, only measures you when you're dead. What about the thousands that are seriously injured and require assistance for the remainder of their life? Is that not a toll? Simple answer, no, because if the TAC were to use the real toll, we wouldnt be seeing this so called 'reduction thanks to speed cameras', instead the picture would be painted as 'incidents are increasing constantly, but less people are being killed thanks to advancements in car safety'.

They actually did have a campaign a couple of years back on the amount of people who survived but were injured. About 60 a day if I remember. It obviously didn't work as well as speed kills.

[vztrt]

Hmmm seems Queensland police are pushing for it. Good time to try get some momentum while the topic is hot in the pulics mind.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/70943/p-...riving-course/

P-platers to do advanced driving course
By Brett Davis | June 21st, 2010

Queensland P-platers, listen up. If you want to get off your provisional license and get a hold of an unrestricted license, the government could have plans to speed that process up for you.

The Police Federation of Australia, representing Australia’s 54,000 police officers, has proposed initiatives to encourage young drivers to take part in advanced driving courses and in return, allow them access to apply for an unrestricted license – regardless of how many hours recorded under current provisional license laws.

The proposal, not yet finalised, hopes to give young drivers a chance to develop their skills as early as possible and to encourage more awareness to defensive and safer driving.

“Give P-platers some encouragement to do advanced driver training in return for some credit, then you’re likely to encourage better driving. The more that do it the better,” federation chief executive Mark Burgess said.

Rachel Nolan, transport minister for Queensland, has opposing views on the matter though. “Students need their time on the roads,” Ms Nolan said.

The Royal Automobile Club of Queensland also fears the initiative could give younger drivers too much confidence. RACQ spokesman, Gary Fites has said most of the restrictions placed upon provisional drivers are there for their own safety and that relieving them of restrictions such as mandatory leaner and provisional training hours could leave them feeling over-skilled, and overconfident.

Almost 28 per cent of the state’s road toll last year was made up of drivers aged between 17 and 24. The advanced driver training initiative hopes to reduce these statistics through more effective driver’s education.

Although the proposal is based on Queensland drivers, the Police Federation of Australia hopes to expand the incentive nationwide in an upcoming meeting this week about universal, state-to-state, license testing procedures. Stay tuned for more updates.

(with news.com.au)

[flappist]

If this is the case Ms Nolan why do you insist on so much advanced driver training for Police, Ambos, Fireys etc?

As always, anything that contradicts the current political agenda must be wrong.

[blueoval]

interesting article vztrt.

There is always some numpty politician that has to shine some negativity towards a positive proposition.

At the moment, youngsters are dying on the roads due to a proportion of 'over confident' & uneducated driving as it is. The difference with this proposal is they are giving these young ones the knowledge and skills to help get themselves OUT of a potentially fatal incident, which to me is the difference between saving and not saving a life. Isn't that the aim?

[cs123]

Originally Posted by blueoval

interesting article vztrt.

There is always some numpty politician that has to shine some negativity towards a positive proposition.

At the moment, youngsters are dying on the roads due to a proportion of 'over confident' & uneducated driving as it is. The difference with this proposal is they are giving these young ones the knowledge and skills to help get themselves OUT of a potentially fatal incident, which to me is the difference between saving and not saving a life. Isn't that the aim?

They can achieve the same with a different carrot. Say rebating the cost of the course plus a govt subsidised discount on their CTP for a few years. That would be a good incentive and you could keep the drivers on their Ps for the same length of time.

And an interesting stick would be that you don't graduate from your Ps until you serve your time and have no outstanding points on your license. Oh god, I'm a bastard.

[tweeked]

If Politicians and police were treated like businesses they would be fined and or jailed after every road accident by the Safe work authority.

I wish i could say that training wont make a difference with my staff and get away with it, but I shouldn't and I cant.

Going by their book i should be able to fine staff if they dont work safely! Then express how irresponsible they are each week after an update on the work injury toll!!

[Bud Bud]

While I was comparing some of our roads to some of the European hiways, I forgot to mention the new road from Perth to Bunbury. I travelled this road last February, and I think that this road is also fantastic. It has very smooth bends and a very good visibility factor. For those who have never been on this road can I let someone from W.A. that travels this road regularly just chime in with their thoughts on the suitability of this road making a good candidate for 130 kph. I know it would not happen but does anybody else agree?

And while we are at it, what other roads around Australia would make good candidates as well?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

While I was comparing some of our roads to some of the European hiways, I forgot to mention the new road from Perth to Bunbury. I travelled this road last February, and I think that this road is also fantastic. It has very smooth bends and a very good visibility factor. For those who have never been on this road can I let someone from W.A. that travels this road regularly just chime in with their thoughts on the suitability of this road making a good candidate for 130 kph. I know it would not happen but does anybody else agree?

And while we are at it, what other roads around Australia would make good candidates as well?

Stuart, Barkly, Arnhem, Victoria, Kakadu

QLD
Bruce from Caboolture to Cooroy (Curra by 2015) and from Marlborough to Sarina, Capricorn west of about Dingo, Flinders west of Charters Towers.

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0622-ytay.html

P-plate reward system "unproven" says road safety researcher
KATHERINE FENECH
June 22, 2010 - 3:00PM

A police plan to give learner and provisional drivers incentives to complete driver training courses would not work, according to a leading WA road safety researcher.

The Police Federation of Australia, which represents policing bodies in all states and territories, will tonight launch a document putting forward 30 of its preferred policies across a range of topics.

Among the proposed strategies was the adoption of national standards for young drivers, including:

* Serious incentives, including relaxed restrictions, for young drivers undertaking advanced driver training
* Standard penalties for breaching speed and alcohol restrictions including speed and alcohol limiters
* Minimum hours of training with a qualified driving instructor
* Limiting the engine power of vehicles and passenger restrictions

Police Federation CEO Mark Burgess said the proposals were about getting a nationally coordinated set of rules in place.

But Curtin-Monash Accident Research Centre research fellow Peter Palamara said advanced driver training courses haven't been proven to reduce accidents or their severity.

"I don't think we truly understand the sorts of programs which would benefit drivers,'' he said.

"There isn't really contemporary evidence that suggests that would be a useful thing because one of the things we have struggled with for many years is understanding what components of a driving course would be useful to drivers."

Mr Palamara said the state should instead be looking to strengthen its current laws including increasing the compulsory supervised driving hours for learners from 25 hours, which he called "insufficient".

"People talk about 120 hours, now I don't know if that's the magic number, some people tell me only 80 hours is enough," he said.

"What we have to do is come up with a licensing system that better assesses who should and shouldn't be on the road.

"The only thing that stands between them and driving is 25 hours and a hazard perception test and we really do need a more advanced and on-road assessment."

He did embrace proposals to restrict passenger numbers for provisional drivers and using speed and alcohol limiters on vehicles of offenders.

But Mr Palamara said WA's laws should go further to bar provisional drivers from being on the road after 10pm. They are currently not allowed to drive after midnight in the first six months of their licence.

Mr Burgess said the policies will be sent to all major political parties for their comment.

[Nikked]

IF a learner does atleast 5-7hours of professional driver training, and a Defensive drivers course. There license should be free.

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by Nikked

IF a learner does atleast 5-7hours of professional driver training, and a Defensive drivers course. There license should be free.

I would agree with that if you changed it to 20-40 hours

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Yaw

I would agree with that if you changed it to 20-40 hours

I had about 80 hours with a licensed instructor, but my license still cost me $300 all up.

[MO]

Once again the Curtain-Monash uni is throwing its two bob in they seem to reject anything that does give new drivers better training. Keep them on the old routine keep fining them more money in govt coffers and more grants for the uni. A pox on the uni I say.

edit for typos

[MAD]

Originally Posted by MO

Once again the Curtain-Monash uni is throwing its two bob in they seem to reject anything that does give new drivers better training. Keep them on the old routine keep fining them more money in govt coffers and more grants for the uni. A pox on the uni I say.

edit for typos

I reckon. Haven't they worked out that you cant control everything.
We are not a mathematical equation that needs just the right amount of X and Y that will result Z driving skills.
They only thing they've been able to come up with in all their years is that it will hurt more if you hit a tree faster.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MAD

I reckon. Haven't they worked out that you cant control everything.
We are not a mathematical equation that needs just the right amount of X and Y that will result Z driving skills.
They only thing they've been able to come up with in all their years is that it will hurt more if you hit a tree faster.

No but they are academics who traditionally get very upset when they are proven to be wrong.

They have pushed the "speed" line for so long that if they were to backflip it would impinge on their credibility and therefore their potential future funding.

The TV show "big bang theory" is not just a comedy about geeks and a pretty girl, it is a very clever insight into much of the mindset of academia.

Intelligent people who spend their lives being addressed as experts and advising others often have extreme difficulty accepting that they could be wrong. After all, if you were a smart as them you would be prestigeous academic too, not some insignificant nobody who works as a "race car driver"......

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by flappist

No but they are academics who traditionally get very upset when they are proven to be wrong.

They have pushed the "speed" line for so long that if they were to backflip it would impinge on their credibility and therefore their potential future funding.

The TV show "big bang theory" is not just a comedy about geeks and a pretty girl, it is a very clever insight into much of the mindset of academia.

Intelligent people who spend their lives being addressed as experts and advising others often have extreme difficulty accepting that they could be wrong. After all, if you were a smart as them you would be prestigeous academic too, not some insignificant nobody who works as a "race car driver"......

Just challenge them to a game of "Rock,Paper,Scissors,Lizard,Spock
◦Scissors cuts Paper
◦Paper covers Rock
◦Rock crushes Lizard
◦Lizard poisons Spock
◦Spock smashes Scissors
◦Scissors decapitates Lizard
◦Lizard eats Paper
◦Paper disproves Spock
◦Spock vaporizes Rock
◦Rock crushes Scissors

[Brazen]

Now is the perfect time to be emailing or visiting local MPs, transport ministers and premiers. The one thing a politician loves is a bandwagon, if there is enough momentum with this in the community you will see changes especially as some state government are in real trouble at the moment with the electorate.

All this attention will go to waste if people dont email or contact politicians directly. Theres a few hundred of us who read this thread, this amount of people emailing a transport minister or a MP in a marginal seat can make a big difference.

We should be thankful that Skaife has brought this to the media's attention, now as motorists who know things can be done better we should be using this attention to get our views across.

Took me 15mins to email my transport minister, shadow transport minister, premier and local MP - same email with changes to names and other slight details.