Spitfire vs BF109

[marty351]

Originally Posted by goo33

The Mosquito.
Fastest plane in WWII.
Broke record after record.
Only plane faster was the experimental Nazi jet.
Mosquito only beaten by Spitfire in manoeuvrability.
Mosquito would have mowed-down Spitfires and P47s on speed alone.

I remember reading somewhere, that at wars end or shortly after, a P-47 being fitted with a modified engine and propeller which then set a record of 515mph becoming the fastest piston engined prop in level flight.
I've not read anything about this since then, but it came as quite a surprise.

[goo33]

Originally Posted by marty351

I remember reading somewhere, that at wars end or shortly after, a P-47 being fitted with a modified engine and propeller which then set a record of 515mph becoming the fastest piston engined prop in level flight.
I've not read anything about this since then, but it came as quite a surprise.

I remember seeing a documentary about the incredible speeds of the twin Merlin Mosquito. As I recall. it was well over 500mph. And it wasn't a stripped down fuselage on a plane flown at sea level. The Mosquito's achievements appear to have been suppressed over the decades.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by goo33

I remember seeing a documentary about the incredible speeds of the twin Merlin Mosquito. As I recall. it was well over 500mph. And it wasn't a stripped down fuselage on a plane flown at sea level. The Mosquito's achievements appear to have been suppressed over the decades.

Two Merlins make a lot of power. We even had a go with such a configuration, but sadly the war ended too soon.



Surely the Wirraway was the superior fighter.

[Tex Scrotum]

Nearly all WW2 fighters had a built in speed limiter depending a lot on wing design.

Most of these fighters were limited by shockwave and compressibility problems at maximum speed.

Once about 0.83 Mach was reached they became unsafe and had major airframe and control surface problems.

There were a LOT of pilots lost due to pushing there airframes beyond their limits.
I think I read once that a third of all fighter pilots lost during WW2 was due to misadventure.

The speed of sound changes with height, air pressure and even weather conditions and once you start pushing the speed of sounds envelope all sorts of weird and strange things happen, airframes would literally tear themselves apart!

[Moby Vic]

Some oddities here: http://hushkit.net/2013/05/09/the-to...ined-fighters/

[Tex Scrotum]

Here's a few diagrams that help explain Shockwave and Compressibility.







Basically once the shockwave from the nose of the aircraft (the V) reaches the wingtips then the pilot starts to lose control of the aircraft, remembering that WW2 aircraft had a very straight wing not very far from the nose and the Shockwave V would come across the wingtips and once it crossed the ailerons there was little or no control of the aircraft.

Also having different parts of the aircraft breaking or close to the speed of sound at different times was VERY BAD, they would suffer incredible turbulence and vibration causing the airframe to fail.

This is why high Mach speed jets have a very long nose, like the SR71 Blackbird which was capable of Mach 3.2.



As speed increases the Shockwave V angle becomes more and more acute.

It took a long time for aircraft designers to figure out what was going on, obviously the German designers were on the right track with the ME262.

It's interesting stuff once you start getting into it.

[lilmattie]

BF109 and Fockwulfe 190D are a pair of my favourite WW2 planes.

It's a long read but it's interesting. A similar comparison has been done before.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

My vote has to go to the BF109, even though it seems less powerful. I've always loved this shot.

[neptune blue]

Both very close in of performance for quite a number of years. I think it came down to the skill of the pilot , how well he knew his machine and the enemies machine and his ability to dog fight on his terms. Guys like Galland and jochchim marseille prove that even with a machine considered to be less manoeuvrable than the spitfire, in the right hands it could hold its own

[Uncle_Ken]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

Both very close in of performance for quite a number of years. I think it came down to the skill of the pilot , how well he knew his machine and the enemies machine and his ability to dog fight on his terms. Guys like Galland and jochchim marseille prove that even with a machine considered to be less manoeuvrable than the spitfire, in the right hands it could hold its own

True about the skills bit for example...
" Later that month, during his fifth combat with American pilots, he shot down two more P-51s before being forced to bail out, when eight other P-51s ran his Messerschmitt out of fuel. During the intense manoeuvring, Hartmann managed to line up one of the P-51s at close range, but heard only a "clank" when he fired, as he had run out of ammunition.[26][28] While he was hanging in his parachute, the P-51s circled above him, and Hartmann wondered if they would take this opportunity to kill him. One of the P-51Bs flown by Lt. Robert J. Goebel of the 308th Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, broke away and headed straight for him.[29] Goebel was making a camera pass to record the bailout and banked away from him only at the last moment, waving at Hartmann as he went by.[30] On 17 August, Hartmann became the top scoring fighter ace, surpassing fellow JG 52 pilot Gerhard Barkhorn, with his 274th victory.[Note 3]"
I dont think to many piolts could mange escaping from 8 Mustangs. Hartman flew 109s for most of the war (mainly on the Russian Front)

UK

[Tex Scrotum]

Obviously flying skills and knowing the limitations as well as their advantages was a big part of survival and shooting down your opponents.

But after reading quite a lot of WW2 fighter pilot autobiographies a few other things standout.

Better than average eyesight and the willingness of the pilot to take advantage and use his good eyesight as well as thinking like the enemy and knowing where to look.
I read time and time again that it was usually whoever saw the other first had a great advantage by being able to gain height and manoeuvre into a favourable attack position.

Also experienced pilots on both sides went for the weakest, just like in nature, experienced pilots were able to quickly access their opponents and pick on the weakest link without necessarily putting their own lives at risk.

Most dogfights lasted only seconds!

The ability to constantly stay very alert and deal quickly with a situation even when they were both physically and mentally exhausted was also very important to survive in combat.

Although I've always read these books because I was interested in these aircraft, as I've gotten older, I'm finding that I'm more and more interested in how these guys survived and dealt with the physical, mental and emotional issues day in and day out.

It would've been a hell of a thing to do!

[Uncle_Ken]

I think I would suck (based on my computer flying )
The average life expectancy of a Spitfire pilot: 4 weeks in 1940
UK

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

Two Merlins make a lot of power. We even had a go with such a configuration, but sadly the war ended too soon.

image

Surely the Wirraway was the superior fighter.

We built DH98 Mosquitoes here at Bankstown...
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P02881.028

No other twin Merlin engined aircraft though.

Also built RR Merlins as well for the Avro Lincoln.

Wirraway was a trainer and not a fighter aircraft

[Ratmick]

Originally Posted by marty351

I remember reading somewhere, that at wars end or shortly after, a P-47 being fitted with a modified engine and propeller which then set a record of 515mph becoming the fastest piston engined prop in level flight.
I've not read anything about this since then, but it came as quite a surprise.

I remember reading about this one years ago, I think that one had a five bladed prop. A P-47 met a ME262 at fairly low altitude where the jet didn't have much of an advantage so the jet pilot opened the throttles and pushed it up into a climb. The ME262 had a fairly phenomenal rate of climb for the day so you didn't have to push it to the stops to pull away from anything the Allies had in the air. Anyway after a short while climbing away (so he thought) the German pilot looked behind him and saw the P-47 was gaining on him (in a vertical climb) and he had to really open it up to get away intact.

[neptune blue]

You can't open up the throttle on an ME 262 . you needed to gradually open the throttle or the engine would flame out. That was its main weakness next to having to change the engines after 15 hours . Most 262's were shot down when making approaches to their airfields. Once at speed it was near impossible to close in on one

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Tex Scrotum

Obviously flying skills and knowing the limitations as well as their advantages was a big part of survival and shooting down your opponents.

But after reading quite a lot of WW2 fighter pilot autobiographies a few other things standout.

Better than average eyesight and the willingness of the pilot to take advantage and use his good eyesight as well as thinking like the enemy and knowing where to look.
I read time and time again that it was usually whoever saw the other first had a great advantage by being able to gain height and manoeuvre into a favourable attack position.

Also experienced pilots on both sides went for the weakest, just like in nature, experienced pilots were able to quickly access their opponents and pick on the weakest link without necessarily putting their own lives at risk.

Most dogfights lasted only seconds!

The ability to constantly stay very alert and deal quickly with a situation even when they were both physically and mentally exhausted was also very important to survive in combat.

Although I've always read these books because I was interested in these aircraft, as I've gotten older, I'm finding that I'm more and more interested in how these guys survived and dealt with the physical, mental and emotional issues day in and day out.

It would've been a hell of a thing to do!

Agreed, a lot of it comes down to who sees who first, they had a big advantage. Also know your plane, if you are in a zero you want a tight slow dog fight. A Me262 on the other hand boom and zoom

A lot of German pilots fell asleep whilst flying (they flew a lot more sorties)

Germans had some insane planes, Me163 and heaps more on the drawing board/prototype stage

Me262's were very vulnerable during take off and landing

[Tex Scrotum]

Feeling a little bit "cooler" and a lot less like a WW2 aircraft nerd since I found out Brad Pitt just bought a Spitfire for a lazy $4 million US.

I'd be doing EXACTLY the same thing if I was on his type of coin!

He's also a year older than me and turns 53 this year, which doesn't make me feel any less "cooler".

This pic below is actually of Brad in his new toy.....what a lucky (inglorious) BAAASTARD!!!



Cheers Brad👍👍👍🍻

[CJR09]

Had the pleasure of seeing these war planes take to the skies this weekend just gone at the the Warbirds over Wanaka air show in NZ - along with yak3, p38, p40, p51, corsair and many others.

I have to say after seeing them in the flesh and viewing their flyby's being on the front lines and hearing a BF109 coming would surely put it up ya - it had a very distinctive whistle or howl to it and seemed alot more aggressive than the mkIX spitfire which was alot more graceful - either way I feel very privelaged to have seen them in the flesh doing what they were built to do - some very impressive bits of kit - two of the greatest aircraft ever built.

If anyone has ever thought of making the trip across the ditch to see it I highly recommend it - fork out the extra for the gold/platinum grandstand catered seating it is well worth it IMO - I was a tightarse and went general admission but there are so many people there sitting room is valuable real estate and runway viewing was not good as the grassy embankments have little to no elevation.

We did a day trip which in hindsight is not enough as the show is relentless and very engaging I just felt I had to stay put and see as much of the show I could which meant no time to get around the static displays which in itself would take a half day easy so was a bit gutted about that - awesome nonetheless and will make plans to go again - it is Bi-annual.

Its not the BF109 below but a very nice p51 with a very apt handle - "dove of peace" - the Messerschmitt was already tucked away for the night by the time I got to its hangar :(

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by CJR09

If anyone has ever thought of making the trip across the ditch to see it I highly recommend it

No need to spend all that money, we've got a similar thing over here. There's 2 Spitfires just down the road from me.

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by CJR09

Had the pleasure of seeing these war planes take to the skies this weekend just gone at the the Warbirds over Wanaka air show in NZ - along with yak3, p38, p40, p51, corsair and many others.

I have to say after seeing them in the flesh and viewing their flyby's being on the front lines and hearing a BF109 coming would surely put it up ya - it had a very distinctive whistle or howl to it and seemed alot more aggressive than the mkIX spitfire which was alot more graceful - either way I feel very privelaged to have seen them in the flesh doing what they were built to do - some very impressive bits of kit - two of the greatest aircraft ever built.

If anyone has ever thought of making the trip across the ditch to see it I highly recommend it - fork out the extra for the gold/platinum grandstand catered seating it is well worth it IMO - I was a tightarse and went general admission but there are so many people there sitting room is valuable real estate and runway viewing was not good as the grassy embankments have little to no elevation.

We did a day trip which in hindsight is not enough as the show is relentless and very engaging I just felt I had to stay put and see as much of the show I could which meant no time to get around the static displays which in itself would take a half day easy so was a bit gutted about that - awesome nonetheless and will make plans to go again - it is Bi-annual.

Its not the BF109 below but a very nice p51 with a very apt handle - "dove of peace" - the Messerschmitt was already tucked away for the night by the time I got to its hangar :(

image

image

109's were supercharged hence the howel. Agree very aggressive looking and sounding plane where as the spitfire is elegant probably because of its wing design. I love both of them

[CJR09]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

No need to spend all that money, we've got a similar thing over here. There's 2 Spitfires just down the road from me.

Granted - by plane it may take about the same time as the crow flies, but I live in NZ these days - about 3-3.5hr drive from Wanaka - would like to get back to Au soon, maybe could check it out at the same time - is it an annual show?

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by CJR09

would like to get back to Au soon, maybe could check it out at the same time - is it an annual show?

Not sure, last year it was around November. Might be more on their site.

http://aviationmuseum.com.au/

[MethodX]

BF109 for me.... a great dogfighter and fuel injected... engine did not cut out during negative G turns.

The Japanese also had the Kawasaki Ki-100, a great plane, they just didn't have enough of them.
The Zero's replacement the A7M Reppu never got into service.

The Italians had the Fiat G.55 Centauro which could match it with many allied fighters.
Also the Macchi fighters, The MC.202 Folgore and Veltro... could match it with a P51.. just not enough... oh well.

[Neale]

Originally Posted by Bill M

Wirraway was a trainer and not a fighter aircraft

Wirraway technically both a fighter and a trainer. Not a good fighter but it was better than nothing

https://www.airforce.gov.au/raafmuse...eries2/A20.htm

[Mesa]

Australia was developing it's own Mustang style replacement after the war, the CA-15 or 'Kangaroo'. Top recorded speed was 502MPH.
Development stopped when Australia joined the jet age and build the Vampire instead.
Would've been a nice aircraft.

[Tex Scrotum]

Originally Posted by superpursuit05

Australia was developing it's own Mustang style replacement after the war, the CA-15 or 'Kangaroo'. Top recorded speed was 502MPH.

Development stopped when Australia joined the jet age and build the Vampire instead.

Would've been a nice aircraft.

P51 Mustangs were actually built (assembled) in Australia, Melbourne I think and some of them saw service in the Korean War.

[Mesa]

Australia built a lot of our own aircraft at the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation (CAC). This is why the CAC aconym is usually used when indentifying Australian built aircraft. For eg CAC Mustang or CAC Sabre. The factory used to be at Fishermans Bend next to GMH. The former runways are now under the West Gate Freeway. These days it's operated by Boeing who do various servicing on aircraft compnents.

Australia used P51 Mustangs in the early part of the Korean war. They switched to the jet powered Meteor's during deployment there.

[Sprintey]

The Merlin V12s at full song are unbelievable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIkSbL83Rx4

A slightly different take on this, my choice would be the Merlin powered Fulmars flying off the decks of RN carriers in the Med and Atlantic early war; kept the fleet safe from many of the Italian bombers. Beaut aircraft, like a stretched Spitfire (Admiralty requirement of an observer). Produced more Navy aces than any other plane. Was evolved into the excellent Firefly that RAN pilots used off Korea.

http://www.armouredcarriers.com/fair...ional-history/

Honourable mention to the 3 Sea Gladiators that were all Malta had at the time of its blitz. Tbh flying one of these prewar off the decks of Courageous, Glorious, Furious or Eagle would have been a lot more fun than any wartime choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrpWcm8V3k4

Non fighter mention, the 'Stringbag', Swordfish torpedo bomber that could take off from Ark Royal's flight deck rising and falling 50 feet, hopelessly obsolete yet irreplaceable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUS5Ho5Msyc

[Tex Scrotum]

YEAGER.....Just finished reading this book and I can highly recommend it, in fact it's one of the best books of this type I have ever read.
Chuck Yeager is a deadset legend and one of the best pilots ever!



The book was very easy to read and I read it in a matter of a couple of days, mainly because I couldn't put it down.

The book is easily available off eBay.

If you like aircraft then you will LOVE this book, the guy lead an amazing life from flying combat in WW2 -Vietnam, as well as being a test pilot in one of the most exciting times of aviation history.

A truly fantastic book and one of my all time favourites.

Cheers 🍻

[Tex Scrotum]

Ok, another book recommendation....."A HIGHER CALL"
Truly one of the best war (or more accurately...anti-war) stories I've ever come across.

If you like Bf 109s then you will love this book as it tracks the careers of a German fighter Ace and a B-17 bomber crew throughout the war until they meet on this extraordinary day where the hardened German fighter Ace takes pity on a badly mauled and torn up B-17 with wounded and dead aboard and unable to defend itself and then escorts them safely out of Germany.

The story continues throughout the war until 40 years later both pilots have nagging unanswered questions and simultaneously track each other down and ultimately become best friends.

A warning though.....this book is a real tear jerker but a fantastic read!










The book is readily available off eBay and can be expensive BUT worth every cent 👍👍👍👍👍👍

Cheers!

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by superpursuit05

Australia built a lot of our own aircraft at the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation (CAC). This is why the CAC aconym is usually used when indentifying Australian built aircraft. For eg CAC Mustang or CAC Sabre. The factory used to be at Fishermans Bend next to GMH. The former runways are now under the West Gate Freeway. These days it's operated by Boeing who do various servicing on aircraft compnents.

Australia used P51 Mustangs in the early part of the Korean war. They switched to the jet powered Meteor's during deployment there.

All of the RAAF's F/A-18A/B Hornet fleet were built in Australia - with the exception of the first two.