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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
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#1 | |||
Render unto Caesar
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ::1
Posts: 4,221
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__________________
"Aliens might be surprised to learn that in a cosmos with limitless starlight, humans kill for energy sources buried in sand." - Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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#2 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 129
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Hopefully we will see some of those cars in Aus. Good to see a few manufacturers besides Honda getting involved, stop wasting time with electric cars and bring on hydrogen.
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#3 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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Until a cheap and easy catalyst is discovered to produce Hydrogen, once again it's a hugely "energy negative" fuel. It takes vast amounts of electricity (produced at a coal fired station usually unless your government has a pair and puts in nuclear) to make the stuff.
Not to mention storga eat the moment is a massive tank in the back of the car as even compressed it takes up a large volume. There was an experimental hydrogen 7-series BMW that did very well...but because of the low energy content of hydrogen it needed a v12 engine to produce the performance of a six. There was also the little matter of the massive cylindrical tank needed to give it a decent range which took up half the back seat and most of the boot. Don't get me wrong...hydrogen shows promise as it allows normal internal combustion engines to be used. It's jus the gas they should be concentrating on it natural gas and LPG. The one line I notice in that article is "government funded"...once again to even make it slightly economically viable, as with ethanol and E10 here, the government must expend large amounts of taxpayers dollars to subsidise the stuff. People forget what will happen to prices when subsidies end. We are already seeing rumblings here from some politicians about the amount of subsidies paid to keep E10 artificially lower than normal unleaded. If and when the subsidies are dropped, and the true price of production is shown, E10 would be about 10 to 20 cents more expensive than ordinary unleaded. I am quite certain one day a low-energy method of production will be invented...the easiest way to fix it at the moment is to source the huge amounts of electricity needed to crack the hydrogen out of water is to use atomic energy (which Australia steadfastly refuses to use despite out massive uranium deposits)...but that won't happen with our gutless governments of all persuasions. But until those new techniques and catalysts are discovered, we have to just accept that if we are going to use hydrogen, we also have to happily accept "tailpipe emission shifting"...what used to come out the car exhaust is now coming out of a power station smokestack somewhere, thus negating any "green" benefit. |
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#4 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 598
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Hydrogen doesn't have to be burned to produce power.
In theory, it can fuel the electrolyte in a battery to "charge" it up....fuel cells. So electric cars are still the way to go. And...if I had one today I could fill the tank everyday with my 9kw of roof mounted solar panels....producing up to 50kw a day at home. 100.00000000% renewable. |
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#5 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 551
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Without more support from powers that be, hydrogen is still a way behind in the alternative fuel stakes, and i doubt that every outlet can be piped to. Nice idea.
Ahem , Flappist. Theres a topic here that needs some sort of inane retort... |
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#6 | |||
GT
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SYDNEY
Posts: 9,205
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#7 | ||
GT
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SYDNEY
Posts: 9,205
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[QUOTE=yzfr101.
Ahem , Flappist. Theres a topic here that needs some sort of inane retort...[/QUOTE] yes err , pixies , dribble ,um fairies, string theories and peter pan . |
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#8 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 551
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Quote:
Are you VP of the Flappist group? ![]() Last edited by SpoolMan; 15-05-2011 at 01:44 PM. |
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#9 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 25
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i believe its defiantly possibly to use solar power to get the power to convert hydrogen.
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#10 | ||
Starter Motor
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 25
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but aside from the electricity issue, i still think this is very exciting, it could solve our energy problem! its way better then electric cars because those massive battery's are so toxic for the environment, both to make and to dispose of.
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#11 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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That Honda in the top picture is a fuel cell car. Hydrogen works to fuel these cells. You can also quite successfully burn it just like LPG in a normal internal combustion engine...in fact one of the best engines for it is a ****el rotary...Mazda had a prototype RX8 with one in it.
But as for "solving the energy crisis", no it won't. Yet. Without a vast amount of clean energy from some source to produce the stuff, you are just emissions-shifting...instead of the tailpipe it's coming out a smokestack. It first requires a government that has the balls to go atomic to produce the clean power needed, and it also needs the public to start to accept a lot less from thier cars. Even the best fuel cell or hydrogen gas powered car is using an energy source of a very low energy content...it takes a large insulated taken to contain even a smallish capacity of liquid hydrogen. Too many people have been shown (or remember from school science classes) seeing a couple of wires in a glass of water bubbling away from a battery and being told "look, there's hydrogen and oxygen being produced!". Yes it is...but a system you could have at home would be massive...gut-your-house-and-fill-it-with-equipment massive. There is a reason it's only produced in useable quantities in massive energy-hungry facilities. You need to electrolyse vast quanitites of water, sererate it into oxygen and hydrogen, compress and liquify it, and then store it and have pumping facilities. Then you need to have refrigeration systems to keep it cold. It isn't as easy as the shonky Dodgy-Brothers under-bonnet magical "hydrogen producers" would have us believe... Hydrogen will never be an "answer"...but it can help. However, until a catalyst of some kind can be discovered that will make the production of it cheap and plentiful, it will remain an expensive energy negative fuel. |
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#12 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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Quote:
Hydrogen is a great idea. It can be extracted from seawater and would be 0 carbon if the energy was provided by Australias greatest resource, uranium..... |
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#13 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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Quote:
Then we are only left with the massive logistical problems of transport, storage, fuelling station issues, on-vehicle storage ("fuel tank" size needed for half-decent range) problems, and energy required to keep it refrigerated. Far higher issues than are associated with LPG...which is already set up and which we should be concentrating on instead of hydrogen. |
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#14 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 598
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You can buy an electric car in Sydney...today...that doesn't use exotic toxic batteries, in fact they arre recyclable.
The car will outperform almost every car on this forum,(0-100 in 3,7 seconds) Think about that...what turbo would you need on a V8 to match that? and get more than 400 plus kilometres between recharges. If you fill a double car port roof with solar panels it will charge it every day. They have setup an Australian operation and are selling cars if you want one. Absolutely leading edge....no need for oil companies products like hydrogen. And almost impossible to tax the fuel used... http://www.teslamotors.com/ I cannot understand why more car companies haven't done what these guys have achieved....... . |
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#15 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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Quote:
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Yep great idea..... They are about the same price a Falcon aren't they? The have a maximum range of 360km THATS IT, you want to drive 500km it will take 2 days there and then 2 days back. They are just a city boy toy......nothing more. |
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#16 | ||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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Quote:
![]() Not to mention they are being sold as a "performance car"...however if you use it as such you'll drain the batteries in a very short time (as Top Gear did a while back after only 89km of heavy use). The can't tax the fuel source? Really. One would assume you have to pay registration of some kind on this vehicle. I would also assume they are going to pick probably four cylinder registration as a base guide...even though it doesn't have an engine as such. All that for a car which doesn't outhandle many similar cars such as a Lotus Elise. At least you could take the Elise on a weekend away without worrying about where to charge up. I think this bit of information is also interesting about the charging: Quote:
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch... ![]() Last edited by 2011G6E; 13-05-2011 at 11:43 PM. |
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#17 | |||
Supercharged Mang-mobile
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Behind the wheel
Posts: 1,792
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Quote:
And oh so true.
__________________
09/00 VX HSV XU6 Build #0001 of 0171 http://fordforums.com.au/showthread....09#post5571209 -- Best E/T: |14.982 @92.12mph | R/T:0.013 | 60' 2.213| 330: 6.283 | 1/8: 9.624 @ 73.17mph | 1000: 12.529 | 25Deg, N/A Hum, 1010mb | Willowbank Raceway 7/12/16 Tickford EL Falcon XR6 RIP ![]() -- Factory Manual -- Best E/T: |14.991 @ 92.71mph | R/T: 0.607 | 60': 2.215 | 660': 9.665 |13Deg, 86%H, 1024mb, 184RA @ Willowbank Raceway |
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#18 | ||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,103
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Isn't water vapor a green house gas?
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#19 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Country NSW
Posts: 1,402
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hm now to work out how to fit Ford's hydrogen powered supercharged V10 (they use in the US with the buses) into the FG, would look nice in my engine bay he he. That will pee the Holden boys off.
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6/6/16 build 2017 plate Race red mustang gt with white solid stripes, tint, x-force exhaust, rear spoiler, 35mm lowered Votgland springs ![]() ![]() |
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#20 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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Quote:
http://www.teslamotors.com/australia $222,995 is a LOT more than a falcon..... |
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#21 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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Quote:
Man, near a quarter of a million bucks (after stamp duty, luxury car tax, and on roads) would buy a hell of a lot of petrol or diesel over a looooong period of time for something nice to drive that will take you anywhere in the country on a trip. At that cost, you could buy an old 1970's big block F100 and to hell with the fuel economy and you'd probably still get ten years running out of it. |
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#22 | |||||
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 598
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Quote:
Since when is a Falcon a benchmark for anything? Quote:
There is a fast charge option. If there were two recharge stations between melb and sydney it could be done in a day. Remember the days when LPG was newly introduced? What happens when a dedicated LPG vehicle runs out of gas? Ding!...its gets towed, no jerry cans for LPG...decanting is illegal... Quote:
That's 300 1/4 mile runs buddy boy....and 299 wins...,.maybe 300 ![]() For a product that's been developed for about the price that the big car makers spend on designing windscreen wipers, it's a damn good achievement in fact it's most likely an embarassment for a lot of them. The big car makers are struggling to get 150km between recharges. Tesla have upset plenty of people and some here by the looks of it. |
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#23 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 598
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Quote:
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0-100 in 3.7 seconds for the Tesla... You need a Nissan GTR to beat that...and it costs a lot more.... 300 1/4 mile runs between recharges? better show me a Holden/Ford that can do that? without an engine rebuild? without losing traction? Do that with my dedicated LPG falcon and it will need a tow to an LPG outlet in a lot less than 89k's... Quote:
You think the govt would openly charge more for registering an electric car than a fossil fuels car? The biggest cost is the occupant crash insurance (third party), not registration. Quote:
LOL...you better do more reading...the Tesla use a Lotus elise chassis and components.... Quote:
90A is the maximum the car will accept as a charge rate, Most houses have 30amps, in that case it will simply take 3 times longer. If you were visiting a mate and had an empty tank. would he have a petrol bowser to fill you up? Of course not, but his 240v 10A outlet would charge you up enough over a few beers to get you home ( if its not too far...) mate...Garage full of solar panels works just fine. Tesla owners in the US are already doing it. You are looking at it too simplistically, without being armed with an understanding of solar arrays Solar arrays are typically 600v strings on your roof ,some are 1500v, which the Tesla can accept...in fact it will accept almost any voltage charge sources. so don't think low 240v...especially when... If you double the voltage then the amps can be halved...triple the voltage and the amps can be a third. Crudely put the formula is Watts= volts x amps 2400w=240v x 10amps (your power point charging Tesla) 2400w=600v x 4 amps (solar array charging Tesla) Hope that clears up your misunderstandings. Last edited by z80; 14-05-2011 at 05:07 PM. |
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#24 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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#25 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 598
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#26 | |||
GT
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SYDNEY
Posts: 9,205
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Quote:
when are you buying yours . from what youve said 'im sold , just not sure about the cost of the car or the life span , will my house catch fire with 90 or 70 amps going through the wiring . ??? i'm still interested , show me the pics of yours ? they must be a very new concept ,and not here as yet , cause i havent come across one , and there are plenty of green voters around here . |
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#27 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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City use only? Perfect.
Anywhere else in the country? Nope. Useless. Why, you ask? Ruminate a bit on the areas outside capital cities...hell, even areas surrounding regional cities. Say the proponents of purely electric cars get thier way and electric vehicles are "widely taken up by the public". How far apart do you propose these high capacity filling stations be located? Probably at every single service station in the country for a start. And a lot in between many will have to be built, because of some of the distances involved. Probably between 50 and 70km apart would be a good distance...you have to allow for people who "forget to fill up" and drive past a station, and have to get to the next one. It happens now with petrol cars that get 600+ km out of a tank of fuel...how much more often would it happen with cars that only get less than 200km out of a "tank". Now, say I was to buy one. All of a sudden the luxury of being able to go where I want, when I want. I will have to start planning my trips carefully, and make double sure the car has a "full tank" before leaving...too bad if I forget to plug it in and it's only got a half charge when I really have to leave. It's 100km in one direction to Emerald where we do our shopping...it's 180 in the other direction to Rockhampton where we also shop and visit major stores. It's all 100 to 110kph roads, and sometimes for long periods of the year it's stinking hot, which would mean using the air con all the time as we do now...this will affect the distance we could go. Just use it for local trips? Why? It's only 20kph to the next small town, and our town has one shop about 300 meters from where we live. "It's not meant for everyone"...that's not the point. it isn't just me out here all on my lonesome. There's 400 people in my town...there's a couple of thousand in the next town. "Widely taking up" electric cars would mean thousands of pretty little electric cars which no one will be using, at vast cost, going by the $220,000+ price for a Tesla. Back to the filling stations. There was a comment about "unable to tax the fuel". Who do you suppose will pay for the billions it would cost to string new high capacity cable all over the country? Who's going to pay for the modifications to existing stations and building of new ones? Where does the extra power come from? You can bet your bollocks you won't be paying a few cents a kilowatt for your electricity like you do now out of the power point. And even if you "fuel up" at home, someone is going to have t pay for all the massive network of new facilities. Oh look...there's all those people who've bought electric cars that meant the building of all this in the first place...they can pay for it in rego costs. Once again...there ain;t no such thing as a free lunch... ![]() |
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#28 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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Quote:
Any information seen by eyes, regardless of how many, is wasted when a brain refuses to comprehend it. Teslas are probably wonderful in California, a state that is less than two thirds the size of Victoria yet had one and a half times the population of the whole of Australia and renowned world wide for its lunatic fringe mentality. |
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#29 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 776
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California is close to double the size of Victoria...fact. |
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#30 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 776
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Quote:
I gather you think that there would be no point to combusting hydrogen if it produced greenhouse gases more potent than that from petrol powered vehicles?, and are not simply trying to sew the seeds of confusion in the general populace and actually know better? Ill assume the former. Water vapor doesnt produce the same problem as CO2 because it doesnt remain a vapor, it condenses and cools and becomes a liquid, co2 doesnt condense at temperatures experienced anywhere on earth so remains a greenhouse gas in the atmosphere. There is plenty of water in the oceans already, the only significant factor that controls how much water vapor is in the atmosphere is the temperature. The extra water produced from the combustion of fossil fuels,.....a drop in the ocean. The extra water produced from combustion of hydrogen? zero, the hydrogen gas that we are talking about producing on a large scale is produced from water in the first place. |
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