My FGX XR8 denied warranty

[SensationFG8]

I'd suggest asking them for the evidence to undeniably prove the tune was done. For them to be making a statement of fact I assume they should be able to tell you the date and time this "unjustified flash" was done.

It'd be really ironic if it was done at the first service and the dealer forgot to "justify" why they flashed the car or something...

It seems they are hanging most of the denial on the fact it has been "tuned" and the drag racing is an after thought.

Edit: I wonder if I can get Ford to give me a report on the state of my ECU so that I know not to expect surprises if I ever have to claim warranty.

[TheSneakiness]

Send an email to Josh Dowling and John Cadogan... that'll fix it.

Ford is bringing this negative publicity on themselves, especially if they happen to have flat out lied about the tow truck incident from the strip.

If you want to know why Ford is slipping down the sales charts, this is why.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Okay kids, here is the new vehicle warranty document from Ford:

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/BlobS...lob&blobkey=id

There are exactly ZERO references to motorsport in it, none! Further, the term misuse is not listed in the definitions section at all. Kempy, send them to hell.

Apparently they won't replace your tyres if you went motor racing (page 6).

[Elks]

Originally Posted by Sprint347

'Unjustified flash to PCM' means somewhere/somehow the factory tune/calibration was changed in some way.

Has the car been tuned at some stage (even if the factory tune was reloaded)?

Yeah the key word is "unjustified" Ford may do updates, but they will be recorded and be all OK. A "Flash" in this context is when someone has overwritten the the ECM program. And to my knowledge there is no way around it.

So if you tune you car, you have "flashed' it. So when you blow your ZF to bits, then put the std tune back in, before it goes to the dealer, the Dealer will look at the ECM and see that it's been flashed twice. Once to the altered tune, and once back to stock. Buh Bow!. No warranty.

In this case the OP may need to ask FoA to recheck their records, or if it's had 1 flash, it will still have the aftermarket tune in it. That should be easy to tell once running.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Apparently they won't replace your tyres if you went motor racing (page 6).

I thought they wouldnt replace consumables at all under waranty? Such as clutch/tyres etc?

I toasted the front OEM tyres on my Focus in about 20,000km and it was just road use and I keep on top of tyre pressures.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Okay kids, here is the new vehicle warranty document from Ford:

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/BlobS...lob&blobkey=id

There are exactly ZERO references to motorsport in it, none! Further, the term misuse is not listed in the definitions section at all. Kempy, send them to hell.

Hold on there.

The Guarantee engagement clause is as follows:

Ford warrants to the Owner that it will during the Ford Vehicle Warranty Period, at its option, repair, replace or adjust free of charge at the premises of the Servicing Dealer any Part of the Vehicle which it finds to be defective in factory materials or workmanship under normal use and operation within Australia

What is normal use and operation. Not defined.

If the use is not normal use and operation, the warranty does not engage. Period!!!

Then para 8 has the misuse exclusion. Again misuse not defined, examples given of overloading, improper surfaces etc.

What is normal use and operation. This is not an exclusion clause where ambiguity is ready against the party drafting the contract.

This is the engagement clause. So, normal use and operation- does this attach to the specific vehicle sold (which us users would contend), or is it a generic term which means normal driving on public roadways within the law (Ford and Dealers would contend)?????

[Trump]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Hold on there.

The Guarantee engagement clause is as follows:

Ford warrants to the Owner that it will during the Ford Vehicle Warranty Period, at its option, repair, replace or adjust free of charge at the premises of the Servicing Dealer any Part of the Vehicle which it finds to be defective in factory materials or workmanship under normal use and operation within Australia

What is normal use and operation. Not defined.

If the use is not normal use and operation, the warranty does not engage. Period!!!

Then para 8 has the misuse exclusion. Again misuse not defined, examples given of overloading, improper surfaces etc.

What is normal use and operation. This is not an exclusion clause where ambiguity is ready against the party drafting the contract.

This is the engagement clause. So, normal use and operation- does this attach to the specific vehicle sold (which us users would contend), or is it a generic term which means normal driving on public roadways within the law (Ford and Dealers would contend)?????

Had the authors defined what "misuse" and "normal use and operation" are in the context of the document, the onus would still be with Ford to provide concrete evidence that the car was subjected to misuse and can join every single dot from said episode of misuse to the point of failure.

By not defining the two terms, Ford have made it an exclusion clause.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I thought they wouldnt replace consumables at all under waranty? Such as clutch/tyres etc?

I toasted the front OEM tyres on my Focus in about 20,000km and it was just road use and I keep on top of tyre pressures.

There was a warranty issue years ago (BF days I believe) were a whole batch of dunlops were buldging out the sidewall. These were replaced under warranty as they were defective (also unsafe). Mind you Dunlop would have payed every cent of this so Ford won't have any trouble allowing this.

But if you went in after 10,000km's with underinflated tyres looking for warranty your not gonna get your way.

Anyways back to the mysterious XR8 that has been flashed but hasn't.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by asagaai

What is normal use and operation.

One could argue a car marketed as a muscle/performance car would be expected to be able to cope with the occasional quarter mile. ie. its neither misuse of the car, nor abnormal.

[cobramania]

I've just read through all the documentation with my 2007 FPV GT Cobra.
Even as far back as that, there is no mention of warranty being void if used in a motorsport application.

As for normal use & operation, it goes on to say that Ford will warrant a part,

as long as the part hasn't become defective due to the owners failure to use or operate the vehicle in accordance with the recommend instructions, the capacity & operating limitations specified for the vehicle by Ford

Nowhere that I can find, suggests a run or two down the strip, or infrequent club style circuit racing is out of the operating limitations of these cars or the recommended instructions. In fact at the end of the run in procedure it says,

from 1,500 kilometres onwards, you can gradually increase the performance demand of your vehicle up to the permitted maximum speeds

The only thing it suggests is,

that the car is speed limited to 250 km/h & operating the vehicle at speeds exceeding these limits runs the risk of damage to the vehicle or injury to yourself or others

The only stated exclusion for a vehicle participating in any form of motor sport is, it's not covered for the (now defunct) FPV Premium Roadside Assistance whilst it's actively participating in the motor sport event.

[cs123]

I dare say you could argue that a Test and Tune is not a motorsport event. If you go run your car down the track 3 or 4 times to see how it goes is a lot different to entering a meet.

They should also be able to tell you what date the PCM modification was applied?

[PepeLePew]

Googling 'warranty misuse car' or 'warranty misuse motorsport' or 'warranty drag racing' conversations from all over the world pop up on the topic, it's not exactly new, and not exactly unique to Ford or FPV or HSV or.....

And the word misuse seems very prevalent as a discretionary catch all in automotive warranty docs. And the most common i.e. 'that is' is motorsport.

I ask the question though of the many who support Ford being in the wrong who would make the decision to take your own 'in warranty' car to the drags....without having it in the back of your heads theres a good chance it'll be used against you BEFORE this thread even came about. The whole you pay to play mantra has also been around a long time. We're very focussed on the drags/motorsport, but even on a public road a burnout (which to me could be the 'flash' referred to) is abuse in warranty terms. They spy rubber under your guards when you come in for a engine trans or driveline claim it'd have the same result.

[cobramania]

Originally Posted by PepeLePew

Googling 'warranty misuse car' or 'warranty misuse motorsport' or 'warranty drag racing' conversations from all over the world pop up on the topic, it's not exactly new, and not exactly unique to Ford or FPV or HSV or.....

And the word misuse seems very prevalent as a discretionary catch all in automotive warranty docs. And the most common i.e. 'that is' is motorsport.

As I've just mentioned though, I can't find anywhere in any FPV (current XR8 driveline) owner documentation, that suggests or even hints at use in any motorsport event being classified as "misuse" of these cars.

In fact I'd say it's quite the opposite, as it seems they expect them to be used in a motorsport event, specifically excluding them from roadside assistance whilst participating in an event.

[kempy311]

Stop the press. The car is going back in the next day or so for further investigation after someone one from ford rang me.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by kempy311

Stop the press. The car is going back in the next day or so for further investigation after someone one from ford rang me.

Nice. Maybe that same guy that's been spying on your build thread stumbled onto this thread?

[cobramania]

Originally Posted by PepeLePew

We're very focussed on the drags/motorsport, but even on a public road a burnout (which to me could be the 'flash' referred to) is abuse in warranty terms. They spy rubber under your guards when you come in for a engine trans or driveline claim it'd have the same result.

If you have a look on youtube, there's a video of Alan Moffatt doing a burnout into the Kloster Ford (Newcastle) workshop in a FPV FG GT (I think it is, can't remember), for a public vehicle release viewing.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by cs123

Nice. Maybe that same guy that's been spying on your build thread stumbled onto this thread?

I'm sure there has been a lot of talk about this thread at Broadmeadows in the past couple of days. After all, access to it is wide open for everyone to read.

And the fact that this would be a reflection on Ford with future Ford buyers, not just Falcon buyers.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

I'm sure there has been a lot of talk about this thread at Broadmeadows in the past couple of days. After all, access to it is wide open for everyone to read.

And the fact that this would be a reflection on Ford with future Ford buyers, not just Falcon buyers.

You'd sure hope that this is getting an airing at HQ. The bean counters (HQ and dealer level) need to realise that those that post here and more generally the target market for the XR8, aren't mugs.

Originally Posted by kempy311

Stop the press. The car is going back in the next day or so for further investigation after someone one from ford rang me.

As for the unexpected phone call, definitely an interesting development. Was the call from Ford themselves or the dealer? And how are they getting the car back to the dealer to continue the investigation?

[PepeLePew]

Originally Posted by kempy311

Stop the press. The car is going back in the next day or so for further investigation after someone one from ford rang me.

I hope it ends well for you mate, don't get me wrong. But if this comes good I'd take it as a message from the Gods ;)

[SensationFG8]

It's good to hear they are re looking at it, best of luck, make sure you get them to provide in writing the reason and evidence to support the denial. From there you can assess if they are being reasonable when taking into account conditions of the warranty.

[End]

Originally Posted by kempy311

NO TUNE. When they say flash I believe they are talking about WOT for a certain time but I'm not really sure.

If you put this info with the other post this is what has happened.

For anyone to mention WOT in this context they mean the throttle position has gone to 100%. These engines don't allow for this.

The presence of a record other than Fords means that is what has allowed this to occur.

Secondary to this is treatment. By itself I would be surprised if it adds up to outright denial of claim.

What they are telling you is they believe your car has been tuned. That is the issue.

Focus on that alone.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Had the authors defined what "misuse" and "normal use and operation" are in the context of the document, the onus would still be with Ford to provide concrete evidence that the car was subjected to misuse and can join every single dot from said episode of misuse to the point of failure.

By not defining the two terms, Ford have made it an exclusion clause.

No- a warranty/insurance clause providing the primary warranty/insurance engagement is not an exclusion clause. Different beast.

This thread looks to be taking a good turn, good for the OP and for Ford.

[99AUXR]

Well done on ford the least they should of done was have a decent inspection and strip it down.

Goodluck kempy may look to have positive outcome yet.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Sorry, but there's not a lot of wiggle room.

You used it for drag racing or competition which is completely outside what warranties allow. Full stop. Even your plain old comprehensive car insurance won't cover you for damage done while it's being used for "competition". Cars aren't built for competition. Of yes yes yes...they might have go faster stripes and lots of power, but they don't intend you to actually race them...they say so right there that it has been used "outside it's design and intent". Most people know this. If it was "intended" to be used for such a purpose I don't think the blower would have failed like that.

Well and truly gone are the days where the high performance models from car makers were virtually race cars with licence plates. Now they merely look the part and are intended for driving "enjoyment", rather than actual competition use.

Try Renault RS, don't they sponsor track days AND cover mechanical issues ?

Sounds like a Motor Sport brand to me ....

[EASYBOSS]

Originally Posted by End

If you put this info with the other post this is what has happened.

For anyone to mention WOT in this context they mean the throttle position has gone to 100%. These engines don't allow for this.

The presence of a record other than Fords means that is what has allowed this to occur.

Secondary to this is treatment. By itself I would be surprised if it adds up to outright denial of claim.

What they are telling you is they believe your car has been tuned. That is the issue.

Focus on that alone.

Interesting first post

[tex]

^^^^^^^ what he said ^^^^^^^^^

Hello ford rep?

[kempy311]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

You'd sure hope that this is getting an airing at HQ. The bean counters (HQ and dealer level) need to realise that those that post here and more generally the target market for the XR8, aren't mugs.



As for the unexpected phone call, definitely an interesting development. Was the call from Ford themselves or the dealer? And how are they getting the car back to the dealer to continue the investigation?

It was ford themselves. They are sorting the tow out.

[BadMax]

Maybe every 'performance' Ford sold in Australia should come with a disclosure document.

"wide open throttle will result in denial of any warranty claims".

I wish the ********* had of taken me seriously when diff whine started in my ute!

[Elks]

Originally Posted by End

For anyone to mention WOT in this context they mean the throttle position has gone to 100%. These engines don't allow for this.

The presence of a record other than Fords means that is what has allowed this to occur.

A 335 only gets 80% ish throttle. If you car is getting 100% that's a bit special. And usually only occurs when a car has been tuned.

Kempy you have been very clear that your car hasn't been tuned, but 100% throttle isn't standard. Has it had any other mod to achieve this?

[kempy311]

Originally Posted by Elks

A 335 only gets 80% ish throttle. If you car is getting 100% that's a bit special. And usually only occurs when a car has been tuned.

Kempy you have been very clear that your car hasn't been tuned, but 100% throttle isn't standard. Has it had any other mod to achieve this?

When I say WOT I mean foot the the floor.