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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
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#1 | |||
Bathed In A Yellow Glow
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NSW Central Coast
Posts: 2,530
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Quote:
http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-e...12-gk7ip0.html |
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#2 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: S.A.
Posts: 4,611
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It's very sad, in many ways.
Sad to see the end of Ford & Holden. I've grown up with a dad involved in the automotive industry, many makes and models in our lives, growing up in the boom years of Holden v Ford, Brock, Moffat, Johnson, and so on. Sad but the writing has been on the wall for 20+ years. Previous governments tried to help. The Button Plan was meant to bring the number of vehicle manufacturers down, so that each had a bigger piece of the R&D dollar pie and increased domestic sales. The aim was always to push for an export model. Sadly, only Holden & Toyota gave a half decent go at exporting. We then got lazy with the resource boom, forgot about the importance of manufacturing and exporting. Then the GFC hit, causing other countries to look internally for products to keep their work force employed. Sad that Mitsubishi & Ford never took the need for exporting seriously, and instead just bled money from the R&D pie for little more than selfish internal needs. The Territory was a serious contender for export, let down by laziness and no guts from management. Ford could have gone hammer & tongs after the export market with the Territory, they just needed to refine it quicker, add the turbo 6, the diesel engine & 6 speed auto much earlier & get the quality control sorted. Holden could have had a decent go at the performance rear drive market, with a 4 door sedan & 2 door coupe. For the price, there is nothing else equivalent to the SS V8 rear drive set up. Sad to see two great Aussie icons (US owned) slowly deleting Aussie muscle cars. Especially sad when you think about what they could have achieved if local management & US owners gave 100%.
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The true danger only occurs when you take a potentially dangerous piece of machinery and place it in the hands of the most unpredictable species on the planet. Human behaviour, as history has catalogued, cannot account for what any persons actions may be, especially concerning their love of the motor vehicle. http://www.fireservicecollege.ac.uk ![]() |
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#3 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,876
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Worth bearing in mind that Holden and Toyota had about $6 billion in investments lined up for after 2017. But the absolutely disgraceful attack by Hockey and Warren Truss in parliament killed that off - has there ever been any country that was so keen to see the end of a value adding industry that generated tens of thousands of jobs??
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#4 | ||
Lurking......
![]() Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 449
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I am genuinely about the future of this country. People just don't seem to see the long term value of keeping this industry. I am seeing the fallout already and the industry hasn't even shut yet.
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#5 | |||
Boss 335
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,330
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#6 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 2,049
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The government has basically shafted itself, even if it was losing money its better to still have it for the technical training, we are going to end up with a nation of aged care workers that are too retarded to build a proper billy cart.
I cannot see why the government cant force buying Australia only made cars to government car fleets, heck even communism is better than this tripe we have to swallow. |
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#7 | ||
Now Fordless
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Fremantle, WA
Posts: 3,611
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I dont think there was any money in exports.
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#8 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,811
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There is more than just the economic argument to this sad tale of woe. The cultural cringe and self loathing of anything that Australians love or believe in by the political and social traitors in our midst has taken its toll and this is one end result...
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#9 | |||
RPO 77
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,913
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Quote:
I agree - but this is basically due to crap trade agreements - people should take more interest in things like the tppp or whatever the f its called and speak up - loudly!
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Q: If you have tried to sell it three times now and it is still not sold, do you think it might be over-priced? A: It is over priced - just like all the other falcon coupes for sale!! ![]() ![]() |
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#10 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,638
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Despite all the FTAs every metric I see measuring global trade... is falling.
If we put ourselves in a falling AUD, end of commodity cycle, stalling global trade environment, it makes a LOT of sense to make things domestically. 1920's/30's all over again, rinse and repeat.
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I6 + AWD |
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#11 | |||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,103
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Quote:
Here I was thinking that people NOT buying sufficient numbers of locally produced cars might be the root cause of the problem. ![]() |
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#12 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melb north
Posts: 12,025
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Quote:
Some people will never get a job as a rocket scientist, despite smart *** politicians always saying we need to be the clever country, there are always people that need factory/manufacturing type jobs . These are the ones that are disappearing faster than light, the road these dipstick/****** politicians have lead us down ............. leads to higher crime, greater unemployment, lower standard of living, and it is already happening, you only have to look at the news , same **** every night , we are becoming little america, ive been in the work force for 40 years and watched it happen. |
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#13 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melb.
Posts: 4,442
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You can blame all the car company heads for their own demise but let's not forget our neighbours are more industrialised with much larger, modern plants using cheap labour building vehicles that more and more people now want. They also have huge domestic markets which helped fund their internatioanal expansions and with the hiring of European engineers and designers gradually improved their products and started their take over here and around the world.
The local 3 build models in a declining market segment and to produce here vehicles Australians actually buy now would mean competing with our cheaper to build neighbours and that would only lead to more red ink. It's more financially viable for Ford to use skilled locals to r&d a vehicle here but build it overseas. If Toyota cannot make money building a Corolla or Hilux here or probably more correctly make more money by importing them, then no-one can. |
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#14 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Geelong
Posts: 1,718
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I will never forget watching Hockey have a go that day in parliament. It was a disgraceful and putrid performance that made me ashamed to be a liberal.
Ford was already gone, but Holden and Toyota could have made a real go of things had the government not been so pig headed. |
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#15 | ||
Performance moderator
![]() Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: St Clair..N.S.W
Posts: 14,875
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If Ford, GM in U.S. Think having a world car makes them more competitive ?
They better think again ... Asian cars with computer robot assembly is up there with the best..
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Real cars are not driven by front wheels,real cars lift them!!... BABYS ARE BOTTLE FED, REAL MEN GET BLOWN. Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! Dart 330ci block turbo black pearl EBXR8 482 rwkw.. Daily driver GTE FG.. Projects http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=107711 http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...8+turbo&page=4 |
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#16 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sydney
Posts: 468
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A lot of words have been written on this forum, of which most are true on this subject.
But I would like to throw in a few other aspects of the decline in the Australian car industry. Holden shot itself in the foot when it developed the VE Commodore. Heavy, ugly, poor vision from inside, noisy V6 engine, a V8 with no torque that guzzled fuel, drove like a truck, etc. I am a Commodore fan and I would not own a VE. It has been downhill for Commodore quality since the VX II. On paper, the VF II will probably be a good seller for Holden. If you produce what the people want, it WILL sell ! A VX II sized Commodore with modern V6’s, Turbo etc, fuel efficient V8 models as well. If they would have went this path, Commodore would have been the number 1 seller again in recent years. It did not help that a “Green Labor Government” paid a lot of money to Ford to put a 4 cylinder engine in a huge hulk of a car. It was an expected FLOP, and it was a FLOP ! Pushing Ford and the rest to go to Euro 5 did not help either. If only all this wasted Government ( and Ford ) money could have gone into the Falcon ! Better Air Con, Better Sound System, Fix the diff issues, reduce road noise from tyres, fix the flakey electronics, etc, etc. Make it a good car and people WILL but it. And the FG II Falcon could have been a great car. The FG X looks like being a sales embarrassment, I keep looking for them on the road, but I have only seen a couple in Sydney. The nose job has been a horror. I have an FG XR6 5 speed auto, and I still thing it is a good drive despite its faults. That’s my 10 cents, and I too regret the coming closure of the Australian car manufacturing industry.
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Current Cars 2009 FG XR6 5 Speed 2002 VX II Commodore Equipe 3.8 Auto |
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#17 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: S.A.
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
Mitsubishi Australia exports were competing against similar FWD vehicles. Holden exported a vehicle which had the potential to create a niche for itself, due to its performance RWD rarity. Toyota's export program was growing, due to its parent company's program. Ford had two things going for it - Territory & turbo I6. If proper management & planning was involved back in 2004-2006, there could have been the beginnings of a decent export market. If the industry was protected from imports & there was no exporting, we'd be a third world country. 'Unfortunately with the financial woes facing MMC globally and the cancelling of the PS41L program MRDAus was unable to reach its full potential.' https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mits...tors_Australia 'During its lifetime, the Magna had been exported in small numbers to Japan, Britain and the United States, where Mitsubishi did not make a big car at that time. Large cars sell in only small numbers in Britain and Japan and those exports were dropped. The US export market was closed when the US started making its own large car which, subsequently, came to Australia as the 380' http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-dep...090417845.html 'Toyota Australia this month exported its one-millionth vehicle to the Middle East, with a peak of 97,000 cars shipped in 2008.' http://www.news.com.au/finance/toyot...-1226726934192 'Biggest export year: In 2005 Holden exported 60,500 cars to the US and the Middle East.' 'Biggest export year: In 1991 Ford exported 30,000 Capris to the US.' 'Biggest export year: In 2002 Mitsubishi exported 25,000 sedans to the US and Canada.'
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The true danger only occurs when you take a potentially dangerous piece of machinery and place it in the hands of the most unpredictable species on the planet. Human behaviour, as history has catalogued, cannot account for what any persons actions may be, especially concerning their love of the motor vehicle. http://www.fireservicecollege.ac.uk ![]() |
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#18 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 8
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We need to build a global car to exist long term. Not many cars are made for one small market such as Australia. Just can't compete when everyone else builds on a global scale. Ford and Holden had Many attempts at a global offering but never really hit the mark.
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#19 | ||
Whipper Snappa
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SA
Posts: 1,192
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Don't take this the wrong way, but Australian RWD sedans were too heavy to be sports cars, not roomy enough to be SUVs, too thirsty for a city-person to drive and too expensive in comparison to global cars.
What's more, our industry was never really OUR industry. Holden and Ford were always local outposts of American giants and such had to contend with the business plan of Executives stateside.
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*insert witty quote* |
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#20 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gold Coast
Posts: 132
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#21 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,638
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Quote:
Some good observations of the Commodore Peter. I feel the same way about VE and the A pillars and wheelarches were a real shock too. When I'd take my dad's VY into service long past its time as a new model, Holden techie's constantly told me the VY model was the best one they made - like VXII it had the last iron block V6's and was relatively simple and robust. If you also look at the sheer loadspace in the wagon (and ute tray for that matter), it's much bigger than in the bigger car that followed it. The auto was agricultural, but the motor relatively torquey and even smooth despite its reputation. Suspension in VY would see it cruise around urban areas, torquing languidly around roundabouts etc. It was quite relaxed and smooth to drive. Their recent saving grace has been the VEII and early VF motors that can chew E85 - perfect for an Australia that is closing oil refineries fast! Edit: the Alloytec 6's did not have an entirely trouble free run and this probably has something to do with it. Coolant early on, slipping of timing chains after that. Here's to pushrods... or better still the Ford Intech SOHC and Barra DOHC inline 6!
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I6 + AWD Last edited by Sprintey; 18-10-2015 at 08:05 PM. |
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#22 | |||
bitch lasagne
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Sonova Beach
Posts: 15,110
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#23 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,638
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Quote:
Agree. Sadly neither of these are coming back until things get so dire that people actually take the time to learn and understand and take up using them. For this reason I always carry some old coinage of the Commonwealth and the Empire in my wallet, at least I know it is 92.5% of something valuable. Try paying for everyday items with it (not that you'd want to - Gresham's law) and people are incredibly confused. British airmen used to carry Sovereigns with them in case shot down over enemy lines they could perhaps barter their life. Later in the life of the 3rd Reich the Germans actually used Sovereigns as a store of value/medium of exchange. When the Suez crisis erupted in 1956, the Arabs demanded Sovereigns as payment so the British (and us) started minting them again after abandoning them in 1931. Crowns, Half Crowns, Shillings, sixpence, thripence (these in the Christmas pudding, 92.5% silver will keep the pudding from going off as of its antiseptic nature!), the original 1966 50c silver coin that the Japanese bought up and melted for it's 50% silver content as we foolishly put more than 50c worth of silver in it! - all the subject of another thread. But basically sound money. And today we're sliding toward stopping cash usage (with its attendant anonymity) of any kind... Proxy alternatives have also arrived... I have manufacturing ability, on a modest scale. It's not being shipped overseas. Younger guys in my industry are extremely impressed with it, and want to be able to make things here, so there is some hope for the future. We may not go down the very dire path - if you look at the path of the US, they have used EBT cards and basically printed currency to continue to fill them (raising debt ceilings, increasing UST borrowings in the meantime) and as they are the default global reserve they can get away with it. So instead of 1930's soup kitchens, it's been relatively civilised, the depression for mainstreet is going on at Walmart on payday. Maybe they'd do the same here?
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I6 + AWD Last edited by Sprintey; 19-10-2015 at 10:45 AM. |
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#24 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: S.A.
Posts: 4,611
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![]() If manufacturing is so important, answer me this: how could a manufacturing industry be sustainable for every country to have the same industry? Not at all, if we all did the same thing. We can't all build cars. It just wont work, even if we stopped all imports, we'd just build basic A-B vehicles that the populace could afford with their minimal income because our export industry is limited by other countries shutting us out. Countries are businesses. If you shut one out, they'll shut you out. Manufacturing is a business, it must be an economical business. If it relies on tax payer funding to stay afloat it becomes uneconomical. People are taxed higher which decreases their disposable income, and the product pricing is influenced by having no competition = high prices, low income. If people want an industry to remain, they need to purchase the product and purchase it often. Look at how Japan started their Auto industry - made cheap copies of other products, sold them cheap, made laws and increased taxes on older model cars, etc = force people to continually purchase new models & dispose of 3-5 year old models, so as to keep factories turning over at fast rates. High number = lower costs. Our car manufacturing died for a number of reasons, one of the reasons is what most people have in their drive way = it wasn't a new local built product every 3-5 years. We need new industry, there are many opportunities for Australia. The world is our oyster, we will prosper.
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The true danger only occurs when you take a potentially dangerous piece of machinery and place it in the hands of the most unpredictable species on the planet. Human behaviour, as history has catalogued, cannot account for what any persons actions may be, especially concerning their love of the motor vehicle. http://www.fireservicecollege.ac.uk ![]() |
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#25 | ||
IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern Suburbs Melbourne
Posts: 17,798
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Car manufacturing begins to close in one yr.
The car industry will still continue with design. Funny enough thats were the money is spent.
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Daniel |
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#26 | |||
bitch lasagne
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Sonova Beach
Posts: 15,110
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Quote:
![]() Maybe for the next cycle or two, but once the Indian and Chinese engineering divisions come online with a comparable skillset and experience as the Australian team, its goodbye Charlie. |
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#27 | ||
IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern Suburbs Melbourne
Posts: 17,798
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By that thinking the outcome was going to be inevitable. Ford will chase the money....it doesn't mean cheaper wages. China already do the engineering for Ford. They cost the same as Australia.
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Daniel |
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#28 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 2,049
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I worked at Holdens and I also worked in the export area, we were sending 2.6 commodores to china, we was building the Monaro Pontiac for America(which was nice to drive).
Soon after the Monaro contract went to mexico because it obviously cheaper to make on corn chips, they basically stole our Monaro, our designs and shipped it somewhere else. |
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#29 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,653
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Sad that these decisions were made when the dollar as at 1.00. I wonder if we might have had a different outcome at today's value of 0.73. I always thought the government’s level of support should have been a moving target linked to the AUD rate.
All too late now. Let’s just hope as many as possible of the 2nd & 3rd terr companies can continue on in some form. |
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#30 | |||
Render unto Caesar
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ::1
Posts: 4,221
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Quote:
It was a perfect storm of government policy, poor management direction, substandard product planning (the I6 as good as it was should have been ditched as planned for the V6 making it suitable for other applications), QC and a very small market.
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"Aliens might be surprised to learn that in a cosmos with limitless starlight, humans kill for energy sources buried in sand." - Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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