**GM preparing for bankruptcy**

[peachey80]

Very interesting time ahead, maybe interesting is not the word.... possibly scarey ???
I wonder if it will mean ALL divsions of GM would be effected ? ie Holden ??
Could be some bargains to be had if they liquidate everything ????
Someone said you can still buy a brand new '07 plated Mitsu 380 fro 15k ???
Wonder if a similar thing will happen with GM cars ????

[ohzone]

I was told by the Head of the Service Department of the Holden Dealership that I do work for that last weekend that they had their links to the main Servers in the US shut down for a number of hours while they transferred all info for the Asian region to Servers in Singapore where everything in Australasia to do with servicing is now being run.
He also said we may end up with a Two company situation one Old GM with all it's liabilities and one New GM, leaner and restructured without the liabilities.

I have no idea if he is correct, but it does sound like change is coming soon

[Bossxr8]

No mention of keeping Pontiac. Could be goodbye to the G8, another kick in the nads for Holden. Go better.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ohzone

I was told by the Head of the Service Department of the Holden Dealership that I do work for that last weekend that they had their links to the main Servers in the US shut down for a number of hours while they transferred all info for the Asian region to Servers in Singapore where everything in Australasia to do with servicing is now being run.
He also said we may end up with a Two company situation one Old GM with all it's liabilities and one New GM, leaner and restructured without the liabilities.

I have no idea if he is correct, but it does sound like change is coming soon

Maybe GM is transferring all trademarks and blueprints to HQ. They supposedly bought all of Opels patents and said they would pay them for it, then they decided to try to sell Opel, didn't pay them for the patents, made Opel pay a fee to use them, and will probably try to sell the patents back to the new owners of Opel. Treachery afoot.

[Sprint XR8]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Maybe GM is transferring all trademarks and blueprints to HQ. They supposedly bought all of Opels patents and said they would pay them for it, then they decided to try to sell Opel, didn't pay them for the patents, made Opel pay a fee to use them, and will probably try to sell the patents back to the new owners of Opel. Treachery afoot.

Quote from the age 22/8/2005.
"The GM Holden profit of $335 million for 2004 was boosted by a $170 million abnormal gain on the sale to parent company General Motors of intellectual property, believed to be the design for the Zeta platform that will underpin the next Commodore."
http://www.theage.com.au/news/busine...562751761.html [Last paragraph.]

[SA_GT]

May I suggest the overflow of any potential bankruptcy will flow on to part suppliers and creditors which will in turn hurt Ford and its subsidiary companies throughout the world? It would seem the only profitable arms of GM are in China and Australia. Yikes.

[Windsor220]

The question is will GM keep Holden?

I would of thought they would but in all reports they never seem to mention anything about Holden. Only Vauxhall, Opel and the American brands.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by SA_GT

May I suggest the overflow of any potential bankruptcy will flow on to part suppliers and creditors which will in turn hurt Ford and its subsidiary companies throughout the world? It would seem the only profitable arms of GM are in China and Australia. Yikes.

Holden aren't profitable...

Haven't been since 2004 I think..

[LUXO_8]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Holden aren't profitable...

Haven't been since 2004 I think..

but they do a crapload of engineering for gm global (ie Zeta) and global engines in melbourne so it kinda cancels out the non profitable bit...

the global engineering is what may save holden

[SA_GT]

That is a fair comment Barraxr8 however, compared to the parent Company (GM) which has posted a net loss for nearly 10 years! I would have to think they are performing rather well. Anyway, my point is, it will have a negative impact on Ford Australia in some way or another.

[SA_GT]

Originally Posted by LUXO_8

but they do a crapload of engineering for gm global (ie Zeta) and global engines in melbourne so it kinda cancels out the non profitable bit...

the global engineering is what may save holden

thanks LUXO_8, that is a very valid point. :

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by LUXO_8

but they do a crapload of engineering for gm global (ie Zeta) and global engines in melbourne so it kinda cancels out the non profitable bit...

the global engineering is what may save holden

The thing is, the Zeta platform is done now so is Holden really doing anymore engineering for GM atm?

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by LUXO_8

but they do a crapload of engineering for gm global (ie Zeta) and global engines in melbourne so it kinda cancels out the non profitable bit...

the global engineering is what may save holden

Global GM Platforms are dead now it seems.

It all boils down to the bottom line...

Holden aren't making money, GM are in real strife, you do the maths.....

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Torxteer

The thing is, the Zeta platform is done now so is Holden really doing anymore engineering for GM atm?

Nope....

[imugli]

Originally Posted by Bent8

That's true, JFK tried to change this and we all know what happened to him!

The "financial crisis" has been engineered over many decades in order to bring in a global currency and a NWO (New World Order).

Don't believe me?...watch this.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoID=26349776

There is ALREADY one global currency. Gold. If you don't want your $$$ to depreciate, buy gold. But we digress...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by SA_GT

That is a fair comment Barraxr8 however, compared to the parent Company (GM) which has posted a net loss for nearly 10 years! I would have to think they are performing rather well. Anyway, my point is, it will have a negative impact on Ford Australia in some way or another.

If you think Holden are performing well then you really have no clue. They are in big trouble. They can no longer go to GM to get funding anymore, the same reason why they couldn't give redundancies to all the extra workers they now no longer need, and they had to go to plan B and have them work one week on, one week off. They would not pay all these excess workers if GM didn't knock back their request for the money to pay for redundancy packages. The story they were doing it to save jobs was a load of crap. They wouldn't pay workers they didn't need if they didn't have too.

At least Ford Australia can still get money off Ford HQ to pay redundancies like they did last November.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by coupex

Quote from the age 22/8/2005.
"The GM Holden profit of $335 million for 2004 was boosted by a $170 million abnormal gain on the sale to parent company General Motors of intellectual property, believed to be the design for the Zeta platform that will underpin the next Commodore."
http://www.theage.com.au/news/busine...562751761.html [Last paragraph.]

I wonder if they have Holden now paying a fee to use the intellectual property like they are doing with Opel. If they do sell Holden off they will gladly charge a packet for the IP.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by imugli

There is ALREADY one global currency. Gold. If you don't want your $$$ to depreciate, buy gold. But we digress...

Both GM & Ford were taking Cereal Crops for payment a while ago. Anything of value is a true currency.

[Sprint XR8]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I wonder if they have Holden now paying a fee to use the intellectual property like they are doing with Opel. If they do sell Holden off they will gladly charge a packet for the IP.

Holden will definately be paying licencing fees back to the US. It also looks like GM have mortgaged the patents to the US treasury.

How GM Destroyed Opel
Pretty damning indictment in today's Die Welt by an "anonymous insider" about how parent company General Motors hollowed out it's successful German subsidiary. According to this account, GM confiscated Opel's valuable patents and designs and then forced the German company to pay outrageous "licensing fees" back to Detroit:

Jetzt liegen unsere Patente also bei GM, und für jedes Auto, das wir bauen, zahlen wir Gebühren an die. Muss ich erwähnen, dass Opel nie einen Cent für seine Patente gesehen hat? (So now our patents are at GM and we pay a fee to them for every car we produce. Do I have to point out that Opel never saw one cent for its patents?)

Die saugen uns aus, die fressen uns leer. Allein im letzten Jahr haben wir an GM 650 Millionen Euro überwiesen. Wofür? Nur für Gebühren von unseren eigenen Patenten. (They suck us dry, they chew us down to the bone. Last year alone we transferred $650 million Euros to GM. What for? Just for fees on our own patents.)


These Opel patents were also cited by Chancellor Angela Merkel as a reason for not approving a massive bailout of the German automaker. Without the patents what real value does Opel have? It was thought that these patents had been pledged as collateral to the US Dept. of Treasury for the Bailout package in the US. Now GM denies this:
http://www.dialoginternational.com/d...oyed-opel.html

GM Says Opel Patents 'Available' To Any New Owner {11/3/2009
GM said patents for all of its brands, belong to a U.S.-based division of the company called the Global Technology Organization.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel cited the uncertainty over the patent ownership in an interview Wednesday with Bild, a daily newspaper. She also said any commitment to aid the auto maker hinged on what level independence an Opel with new investors would have from GM.
A German official last week told Dow Jones Newswires that GM doesn't own Opel patents following the sale of the rights to the U.S. Treasury, adding that the company aimed to repurchase them at a later stage.
GM's Preuss declined to comment on whether GM has put up any of its patents up as collateral for the U.S. government loans keeping GM afloat.
However, he said GM would ensure any new majority shareholder in Opel would have access to the intellectual property
http://www.easybourse.com/bourse-act...4421052-632164

[Piotr]

Originally Posted by imugli

There is ALREADY one global currency. Gold. If you don't want your $$$ to depreciate, buy gold. But we digress...

Gold price fluctuates just like exchange rates.

[CJR09]

Originally Posted by imugli

There is ALREADY one global currency. Gold. If you don't want your $$$ to depreciate, buy gold. But we digress...

the value in gold is inflated just the same as everything else, a large percentage of it only holds paper worth and is effectively a another version of a scheme that has been used to a somewhat successful extent in recent times

if you were to buy gold stock and then asked for the tangible physical value/worth of "your" gold you would not/do not receive it, just a certificate - hence the term paper gold.

sooner or later (in the next 24-36 months) it will correct to its true worth - i'm picking sooner, it has already peaked and is now in a downward trend.

[z80]

My opinion, based on living through 5 recessions.....

Holden will be in trouble whithin 12 months.
Ford and Toyota will scale back.
Ford will be a body stamping operation at best in 5 years.
Unemployment will hit dizzy heights in 2010.

Talk to anyone who has just come from Europe.

The only reason we haven't noticed is because China is stockpiling ore cause the price is cheap.

When it all stops...it will make your head spin.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by z80

Ford will be a body stamping operation at best in 5 years.

They already have concrete plans to build Focus?

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by z80

My opinion, based on living through 5 recessions.....

Holden will be in trouble whithin 12 months.
Ford and Toyota will scale back.
Ford will be a body stamping operation at best in 5 years.
Unemployment will hit dizzy heights in 2010.

Talk to anyone who has just come from Europe.

The only reason we haven't noticed is because China is stockpiling ore cause the price is cheap.

When it all stops...it will make your head spin.

I agree, this is on the money.

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by Piotr

Gold price fluctuates just like exchange rates.

But keep in mind if the world economy collapses, gold (and silver to a lesser extent) will be the ONLY currency to buy thing's with.

[Piotr]

Originally Posted by Bent8

But keep in mind if the world economy collapses, gold (and silver to a lesser extent) will be the ONLY currency to buy thing's with.

LOL no

Go into a store with 0.01ounce of gold and try to buy a mars bar, it just won't happen.

If you think this is the case you sir are an ignoramus.

[mikmak]

lol. Piotr. When the value of the US Dollar crashes, Bent8 will be rolling in mars bars, whereas everyone else (whom has no gold) will be using green backs as tallyhos.

[mikmak]

Originally Posted by z80

My opinion, based on living through 5 recessions.....

Holden will be in trouble whithin 12 months.
Ford and Toyota will scale back.
Ford will be a body stamping operation at best in 5 years.
Unemployment will hit dizzy heights in 2010.

Talk to anyone who has just come from Europe.

The only reason we haven't noticed is because China is stockpiling ore cause the price is cheap.

When it all stops...it will make your head spin.

Either you're 75+ or there isn't much you remember about the 60-61 recession. What on earth contributed to your assessment of Ford being a stamping operation in 5 years?
+ after the recession...erm, recedes, there will still be a great demand for energy and ore. I would imagine that in 2010, there may well be high unemployment, but we should well and truly be in a trough by then.

[mikmak]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Global GM Platforms are dead now it seems.

It all boils down to the bottom line...

Holden aren't making money, GM are in real strife, you do the maths.....

Global GM platforms are dead? :

I'm assuming you may be talking about the Zeta platform, in which case it is on its last legs (perhaps 2013) but may be replaced by a more flexible Alpha platform.

Aside from that, there is also the Delta platform which the next big global platform from GM (Astra, Cruze, Australian Variant and Volt/Ampera/Converj etc.). Considering it is being developed to compete in the same market as Focus, it will probably have a small SUV and Wagon to go along with the Sedan and Hatch already developed.

No one knows what will be built locally, but the plan is to have it support regional versions such as the Cruze from SK (built by GM Daewoo of which Holden owns 42.2%).

The intellectual property rights for Zeta are included as part of the assets detailed to the US Senate in GMs contract for receiving funds.

If/when (getting more likely to be when) GM enters bankruptcy, the ongoing debts leveraged against GM will be shouldered onto the list of crap that will be left behind.

Remember, the US are essentially buying controlling interest in General Motors. At the end of the process, it is in the interests of their majority shareholders (American Tax Payers by proxy), that the US Feds retain as much money making operations as possible, to ensure a return on their investment. Holden is already restructuring (though it will get tougher) , to ensure that they are a viable part of GMs future plans. The Australian Government has already made significant contribution to that cause by investing in the local production of a Delta variant.

Even if GM trips and falls in the toilet, it isn't going to vanish and neither is Holden. They will just be a whole lot leaner and Holden will be less dependant on a singular model line. It is essentially the same strategy being employed by Ford Aus. Either way, Holden and Ford are not liabilities to their parent companies and neither parent company really gives a about what Holden and Ford Aus do unless it costs them money.

Best selling vehicles can get near 1 million units in the US. Our volumes aren't big enough to even draw interest.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by mikmak

Either you're 75+ or there isn't much you remember about the 60-61 recession. What on earth contributed to your assessment of Ford being a stamping operation in 5 years?
+ after the recession...erm, recedes, there will still be a great demand for energy and ore. I would imagine that in 2010, there may well be high unemployment, but we should well and truly be in a trough by then.

Like you I'm more upbeat about the future, It's not like the nation hasn't had them before:


1893-94
1914-15
1926 -27
1931-32
1942-43
1946-47
1961-62
1966-66
1969-70
1974-75
1982-83
1990 -91
2009-?