Supercharged LS9 - 620hp

**Luke Plaizier** · 14-02-2008, 02:39 PM

http://www.sae.org/automag/technewsl...ertrain/01.htm

But what a quote:

"Of all the production piston engines in GM's 100-year history, only the Allison aero V-12 that powered World War II fighter planes produced more power than the new LS9 V8 that will power the 2009 Corvette ZR1"

Does that just mean all of their other engines were crap? Sorry, I had to say it....

Lukeyson

ED Classic · 14-02-2008, 02:42 PM

Thats going to be a friggn tough showroom floor engine for HSV when it gets here one day whether we like it or not.

Boosh Brus · 14-02-2008, 02:51 PM

Id be impressed if it had 620hp without the supercharger.

Other manufacturers are getting over 100hp per litre NA e.g M5, M3, R8

Steffo · 14-02-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry_buckle

Id be impressed if it had 620hp without the supercharger.

Other manufacturers are getting over 100hp per litre NA e.g M5, M3, R8

Audi R8 (4.2L and 414hp, 98.57hp/litre) doesn't get 100, let alone over it.

Boosh Brus · 14-02-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Audi R8 (4.2L and 414hp, 98.57hp/litre) doesn't get 100, let alone over it.

My bad
Ferrari 599 GTB is another one: 6.0L making 620bhp

Don't get me wrong i love the idea of a 600+ hp production car im just not impressed on how they get there.

**CAT600** · 14-02-2008, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry_buckle

Id be impressed if it had 620hp without the supercharger.

Other manufacturers are getting over 100hp per litre NA e.g M5, M3, R8

I understand your point here, but those engines are optimised, and would be within 5% of their maximum potential.

The ZR1 would have another 30+% potential with an extra 5psi of boost. 800-900hp will be easily attainable in the aftermarket.

Another side benefit of the LS9, (much like the Ford GT and GT500 engines), is the huge low end torque available just off idle. M5 and "stump-puller" are not words i'd use in the same sentence.

Daniel

Steffo · 14-02-2008, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT600

I understand your point here, but those engines are optimised, and would be within 5% of their maximum potential.

The ZR1 would have another 30+% potential with an extra 5psi of boost. 800-900hp will be easily attainable in the aftermarket.

Another side benefit of the LS9, (much like the Ford GT and GT500 engines), is the huge low end torque available just off idle. M5 and "stump-puller" are not words i'd use in the same sentence.

Daniel

Within 5% of their maximum potential eh? "Optimised?"

The 500hp 384ftlb (373kW 520Nm) 5.0 V10 M5 has just been stroked by Dinan to 5.7litres and now produces 628hp 512ftlbs (469kW 694Nm) in stroked form. That's an increase from 100hp/litre to 110.17hp/litre and from 104Nm/litre to 121.75Nm/litre. Its got more power then the ZR-1 and is N/A and still smaller capacity too.

And there are plenty of 550-600hp N/A 5.0-litre aftermarket modified M5's too.

That's just one pretty easy example...

The Corvette is about as sophisticated as a hammer, there's no escaping it. The excuses about "potential," are just that... excues.

Also, torque doesn't make cars fast...

Chevrolet Corvette C6 - 6.0 V8 299kW 542Nm - 1475kg
0-100 in 4.4, 1/4 in 12.6, 298km/h top speed

BMW M5 - 5.0 V10 373kW 520Nm - 1755kg
0-100 in 4.1, 1/4 in 12.4, 330km/h de-restricted top speed, 250km/h speed limited.

The "stump puller," 650Nm GT500 is also slow in comparison to an M5, with times in the 12.7-12.9 area, its car lengths behind... and after about 120mph, they distance increases exponentially. Its also slower then the new 309kW 400Nm (414hp 295ftlb) M3.

Steffo · 14-02-2008, 08:31 PM

One more interesting thing about the M5... after 160mph (256km/h) it actually catches and overtakes the 7.0-litre Corvette Z06 and stays ahead all the way to its de-restricted 206mph top speed which is higher then the Z06's 198mph. Quite impressive for a "torqueless," 1755kg sedan.

saber · 14-02-2008, 08:42 PM

Completely agree with you there Steffo, just because a car makes massive power at the flywheel doesn't mean it will do 4sec 0-100km and quarter mile times. Getting power down to the ground is what its about, as shown by Steffo figurers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Also, torque doesn't make cars fast...

Chevrolet Corvette C6 - 6.0 V8 299kW 542Nm - 1475kg
0-100 in 4.4, 1/4 in 12.6, 298km/h top speed

BMW M5 - 5.0 V10 373kW 520Nm - 1755kg
0-100 in 4.1, 1/4 in 12.4, 330km/h de-restricted top speed, 250km/h speed limited.

nugget378 · 14-02-2008, 08:50 PM

I wouldnt knock back a 620hp daily,whatever it was...
I wonder of those criticiseing it how many have actually ever been in a real 600hp car let alone drove one.

**CAT600** · 14-02-2008, 08:57 PM

Steffo,

Torqueless and low down torque are very different. Top end Torque=Hp does it not????, Don't compare the aero of the Z06 and an M series BMW: One is an autobahn stormer, the other, a track supercar destined for downforce much more than efficient fuel economy at 160mph!

There have been numerous complaints about the M5/M6's lack of low end torque. Never yet have I heard that about the GT or GT500. The ZR1 will be no different.

You seem to miss the point I am making. N/A cars will never have the potential to show the massive increases that a factory boosted car inheirantly has. Look at our own market: F6 vs LS2.....No comparison.

Daniel

Steffo · 14-02-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT600

Steffo,

Torqueless and low down torque are very different. Top end Torque=Hp does it not????, Don't compare the aero of the Z06 and an M series BMW: One is an autobahn stormer, the other, a track supercar destined for downforce much more than efficient fuel economy at 160mph!

There have been numerous complaints about the M5/M6's lack of low end torque. Never yet have I heard that about the GT or GT500. The ZR1 will be no different.

You seem to miss the point I am making. N/A cars will never have the potential to show the massive increases that a factory boosted car inheirantly has. Look at our own market: F6 vs LS2.....No comparison.

Daniel

The Z06 has better aero then the M5... one's a 1418kg sleek sports car, the other a 1755kg luxury sedan.

Who's complaining about the M5 lack of bottom end? I'm yet to read a review where they don't rave about how good the car is.

Yeah, you can make lots of power pretty easily with the ZR-1, but that doesn't change the car, just makes it more powerful. Its not going to make it more sophisticated, brake better, handle better etc.

My statement stands. The Corvette is on par with sophistication with a hammer.

Steffo · 14-02-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugget378

I wouldnt knock back a 620hp daily,whatever it was...
I wonder of those criticiseing it how many have actually ever been in a real 600hp car let alone drove one.

Yep. Been in a 600hp 911 Turbo. About 1100-1200kg of car. Was unbelievable, never going to forget it!

**ebxr8240** · 14-02-2008, 09:40 PM

Who cares you guys will NEVER own one anyway !!!!
Imo forced induction is MUCH nicer to drive....

**CAT600** · 14-02-2008, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Who cares you guys will NEVER own one anyway !!!!

Don't count on that.

Daniel

**CAT600** · 14-02-2008, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Who's complaining about the M5 lack of bottom end? I'm yet to read a review where they don't rave about how good the car is.

Actually, in every comparo i've read with blown AMG Mercs, the lack of bottom end torque is highlighted. I never said it's not a good car

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

My statement stands. The Corvette is on par with sophistication with a hammer.

And a bloody good hammer it is.

Daniel

5.4 GT · 14-02-2008, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Yep. Been in a 600hp 911 Turbo. About 1100-1200kg of car. Was unbelievable, never going to forget it!

Steffo who do you know/work for as you've been in some pretty damn impressive exotic cars and your a year younger than me!!??

Bent8 · 14-02-2008, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry_buckle

Id be impressed if it had 620hp without the supercharger.

Other manufacturers are getting over 100hp per litre NA e.g M5, M3, R8

Agreed, GM aren't into tuning engine's (or maybe they don't know how to

) even the SLR with it's smaller and ageing supercharged 5.4L makes 650hp/820Nm!!

Nah GM much prefer re-boring and using forced induction for easy power gains...not much skill required there.

You're right the M3 has 105hp/Litre, the M5 exactly 100hp/Litre, other's include the Porsche GT3 with 115hp/Litre and the F430 Scuderia with 118hp/Litre!!...compare that to the 7.0L LS7 with only 72hp/Litre

And Steffo, I'll tell ya why the M5 beats the Z06 Vette above 256km/h in just a minute...maybe you can take a wild guess.

Steffo · 14-02-2008, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveO_SP

Steffo who do you know/work for as you've been in some pretty damn impressive exotic cars and your a year younger than me!!??

It was my uncle's (mum's younger sister's husband). It was a 1978 model Turbo 3.3 with the exterior done like a 993, 3.3 Turbo engine from a 964 with mods. It wasn't exactly a new car... the project cost $120,000 all up (including purchase of the original 930 Turbo), which lots of people pay to make old fast Falcons and things (and I'm sure quite a few on the forum have).

As for the other exotic cars I get rides in, they're either his, his friend's and acquaintences, or my old man's friends and acquaintences, or people I meet through friends. Liking cars and having friends who like cars is pretty much it.

Myself, I'm nowhere near able to afford anything like that yet. I wish I could though... the cars I'd own!

Steffo · 14-02-2008, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent8

And Steffo, I'll tell ya why the M5 beats the Z06 Vette above 256km/h in just a minute...maybe you can take a wild guess.

I'll tell you the real reason. Overdrive gears. The Z06's 5th and 6th are both overdrive gears. 160mph occurs at the end of 4th, the shift into fifth puts the car to 5100rpm, which is... well, it shaves quite a bit off its 160+ acceleration. The M5 and its 7-spd SMG wunderbox doesn't have such an issue...

Bent8 · 14-02-2008, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

I'll tell you the real reason. Overdrive gears. The Z06's 5th and 6th are both overdrive gears. 160mph occurs at the end of 4th, the shift into fifth puts the car to 5100rpm, which is... well, it shaves quite a bit off its 160+ acceleration. The M5 and its 7-spd SMG wunderbox doesn't have such an issue...

Spot on mate...I wonder what would happen if the Z06 had the M5's box and the M5 had the Vette's gearbox....

Steffo · 14-02-2008, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent8

Spot on mate...I wonder what would happen if the Z06 had the M5's box and the M5 had the Vette's gearbox....

There is a 6-speed manual M5 available in the USA and it sucks. Its a better ratio'd gearbox then the 'vettes, but it still sucks without the super sequential. The SMGIII version destroys it.

How badly? Half a second to 100km/h and three tenths down the 1/4 kind of badly. Apparantley its also poorer on a track, something to do with the DSC not being fully switchable with it like it is on the SMG version.

This isn't the first time that bad gearing has stuffed Corvette performance...

BMW M3 E46, 252kW 365Nm, 1573kg vs Chevrolet Corvette C5, 261kW 508Nm, 1418kg. M3 is faster to 100km/h by 1 tenth, and then almost half a second down the quarter... with the SMGII 'box of course. The manual M3... not quite.

Bent8 · 14-02-2008, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

There is a 6-speed manual M5 available in the USA and it sucks. Its a better ratio'd gearbox then the 'vettes, but it still sucks without the super sequential. The SMGIII version destroys it.

How badly? Half a second to 100km/h and three tenths down the 1/4 kind of badly. Apparantley its also poorer on a track, something to do with the DSC not being fully switchable with it like it is on the SMG version.

This isn't the first time that bad gearing has stuffed Corvette performance...

BMW M3 E46, 252kW 365Nm, 1573kg vs Chevrolet Corvette C5, 261kW 508Nm, 1418kg. M3 is faster to 100km/h by 1 tenth, and then almost half a second down the quarter... with the SMGII 'box of course. The manual M3... not quite.

Yep, just goes to show how important gearing is with performance cars...actually I wouldn't mind the the M5's SMG box in my XR8...I'd probably beat everything on the road bar the exotics and hypo-turbo cars

ED Classic · 15-02-2008, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugget378

I wouldnt knock back a 620hp daily,whatever it was...
I wonder of those criticiseing it how many have actually ever been in a real 600hp car let alone drove one.

Amen!!!!!!!!!

superkid · 15-02-2008, 06:35 AM

Very nice

weenie · 15-02-2008, 09:14 AM

Is a zr1 anywhere near the price of an m5?? I think you will find that GM are just keeping it simple & cost effective, & producing a weapon of a car a a very affordable price. Just my 2c.

Boosh Brus · 15-02-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weenie

Is a zr1 anywhere near the price of an m5?? I think you will find that GM are just keeping it simple & cost effective, & producing a weapon of a car a a very affordable price. Just my 2c.

Pretty close actually:
In the US a base model Z06 costs $72125 and a base model M5 costs $83675

A bit of difference but they are completely different cars a better comparison would be the M3 (Rumoured to be (<$60000) or Z4M coupe ($54000)

austyphoon · 15-02-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Within 5% of their maximum potential eh? "Optimised?"

The 500hp 384ftlb (373kW 520Nm) 5.0 V10 M5 has just been stroked by Dinan to 5.7litres and now produces 628hp 512ftlbs (469kW 694Nm) in stroked form. That's an increase from 100hp/litre to 110.17hp/litre and from 104Nm/litre to 121.75Nm/litre. Its got more power then the ZR-1 and is N/A and still smaller capacity too.

And there are plenty of 550-600hp N/A 5.0-litre aftermarket modified M5's too.

That's just one pretty easy example...

The Corvette is about as sophisticated as a hammer, there's no escaping it. The excuses about "potential," are just that... excues.

Also, torque doesn't make cars fast...

Chevrolet Corvette C6 - 6.0 V8 299kW 542Nm - 1475kg
0-100 in 4.4, 1/4 in 12.6, 298km/h top speed

BMW M5 - 5.0 V10 373kW 520Nm - 1755kg
0-100 in 4.1, 1/4 in 12.4, 330km/h de-restricted top speed, 250km/h speed limited.

The "stump puller," 650Nm GT500 is also slow in comparison to an M5, with times in the 12.7-12.9 area, its car lengths behind... and after about 120mph, they distance increases exponentially. Its also slower then the new 309kW 400Nm (414hp 295ftlb) M3.

Why did you compare the the normal C6 to the M5 instead of the Z06? Is it because the M5 get's it's *** handed to it? and it doesn't look like the M5 "catches and stays ahead of the Z06".

video references here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOdEy...eature=related

how about against the M6?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovZWa...eature=related

and a stock Z06 verse a kellener modified M5?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEcfe...eature=related

what about the F430?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slMqP...eature=related

Oh dear, looks like those 100hp/L cars are struggling to keep up with the pushrod...

Really, who cares if "The Corvette is on par with sophistication with a hammer", it does what it's meant to do.

Your claim about stroking the M5 to 5.7L, how expensive would that be? It will be just a pulley change and more boost on the 6.2L supercharged ZR1 and your be laughing all the way on the drag strip and track.

I would love an M5 though.

WASP · 15-02-2008, 12:59 PM

Generally speaking low-tech performance engines usually equate to easier, cheaper power potenial gains, less refinement, durability and poor fuel effeciency. High-tech performance engines usually equate to much higher cost in achieving performance gains, excellent levels of refinement, durability and surprisingly reasonable fuel efficency. And Yes, there are examples that break this formula.

Summary: Equal fun can be had for either budget and nobody has to misses out.

I wouldnt personally knock back either a Supercharged LS9 or M5

irlewy86 · 15-02-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

My statement stands. The Corvette is on par with sophistication with a hammer.

More like a sledgehammer. But at the end of the day who cares, I'd rather a hammer over a scalpel anyday.