Has the falcodore grown itself out of the market?

[RAPID_BA]

There is no question that from the mid 90s our big cars Falcon and Commodore have provided more and more value for their price point. For $32k you can buy a Commodore Omega or Falcon XT, both a good bit of gear for the price.

In 1995 you could buy a Commodore executive or Falcon GLi for about the same money. The cars have evolved into a much better proposition for the money, features, motors, looks.

However, these cars have also shifted upwards in size and weight. Look at the history of the holden, went from a tank in the kingswood to a smallish big car for the VB-VL series, grew up a little with the VN-VS, then grew again for the VT-VZ and now in its biggest ever form the VE.

Ford have been a little more consistent, went from the tank XB-XC range to a smaller tank in the XD-XF, About the same size EA-EL, consistent size with the AU and then seemed to grow in size with BA-FG.

But the market looking for a family car or business looking for a fleet of cars now considers Camry / Lancer / Mazda 3 as a safe car with adequate size and power.

Does Commodore and Falcon need to rationalise their size, weight and with their superior powertrains really take the market back?

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

There is no question that from the mid 90s our big cars Falcon and Commodore have provided more and more value for their price point. For $32k you can buy a Commodore Omega or Falcon XT, both a good bit of gear for the price.

In 1995 you could buy a Commodore executive or Falcon GLi for about the same money. The cars have evolved into a much better proposition for the money, features, motors, looks.

However, these cars have also shifted upwards in size and weight. Look at the history of the holden, went from a tank in the kingswood to a smallish big car for the VB-VL series, grew up a little with the VN-VS, then grew again for the VT-VZ and now in its biggest ever form the VE.

Ford have been a little more consistent, went from the tank XB-XC range to a smaller tank in the XD-XF, About the same size EA-EL, consistent size with the AU and then seemed to grow in size with BA-FG.

But the market looking for a family car or business looking for a fleet of cars now considers Camry / Lancer / Mazda 3 as a safe car with adequate size and power.

Does Commodore and Falcon need to rationalise their size, weight and with their superior powertrains really take the market back?

All the successful passenger cars in your list have prices in the 20s. It has nothing to do with weight and size - it is the price that needs to go on a diet. It is ridiculous to price a Falcon 90% more over a Focus, and sales are reflecting this.

People shop with their wallet, not a tape measure.

[aussie muscle]

i think the market has changed, people can now buy two cars to do the job that used to be done by the big sedans. instead of a compromise, a lot of people buy a SUV and a small car.

Also the price of camry has gone down in price over the last decade as mentioned in the october monthly sales thread.

[mik]

it`s nothing whatever to do with power trains, gadgets, or brand allegiance imo, if your a family person and have limited funds you only have to look on idiot box and you can see a standard medium import that will ferry the family around for 10/12 grand cheaper than the falcadore, it`s simple economics, people have less disposable income these days, and there`s more people living on less these days.
imports are cheaper for reasons that have been discussed many times before, those that would have once bought a falcadore settle for less because they have less disposable income, it`s not the fuel economy argument because you can purchase a falcadore on gas that is cheap to run, it is all about purchase price and disposable income.

[davenl5l]

yep it's gotta be price most of the so called small to midsize cars are the same size as falcon or that close it dosn't matter also most people know nothing about cars so believe what advertisers tell them

[Brazen]

Considering that Toyota blew away the market last month with 4300 Camry/Aurions, 900 more vehicles than second place - shows that the larger sedans are still in demand IF they are well priced. In this case starting from 28,990 driveaway and with 0% finance.

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

consistent size with the AU and then seemed to grow in size with BA-FG.

The AU and the B series had the same body shell with different front and rear panels so they were all the same size

[last fairlane]

Hi AU
Not quite right
I have both an AU and a BA
and if you look at the rear doors
there is a spacer between the door and the dog leg
of about 50mm
in the AU it was abour 20mm
and the Fairlane about 100mm
so there is a slight difference
thanks John

[stevz]

Originally Posted by mik

it`s nothing whatever to do with power trains, gadgets, or brand allegiance imo, if your a family person and have limited funds you only have to look on idiot box and you can see a standard medium import that will ferry the family around for 10/12 grand cheaper than the falcadore, it`s simple economics, people have less disposable income these days, and there`s more people living on less these days.
imports are cheaper for reasons that have been discussed many times before, those that would have once bought a falcadore settle for less because they have less disposable income, it`s not the fuel economy argument because you can purchase a falcadore on gas that is cheap to run, it is all about purchase price and disposable income.

Why must it be a new purchase? For the same price as a new cramped, dull, ugly, soulless imported buzzbox you could buy yourself a 1-2 year old Falcon, Commodore, Calais, G6E etc etc and get far more car for your money. I had to drive a Mazda 3 the other day and what a truly depressing experience it was compared to the Falcons and Commodores that I normally drive. If money is so important to people then I just can't understand why they would throw it away on a crappy little inferior buzzbox when you could get a 'proper' 1-2 year old car for the same price.

[robbyj]

I agree a near new second hand falcon is more car for your money if comparing to a mazda 3 or something.

But those cars are not inferior or crappy little buzzbox's. Some people just want a car to get them from A to B with some nice safety features and good looks. If they can get a 'Brand New' car that appeals to them in their price range, why wouldn't they?

[EgoFG]

Just Guuna say .... :

I have just got the Mrs a Mitsu Outlander.

Having had this car for a week, I can see it easily replacing the Ghia as our family car.
When I sit comfortably in the front seat, I can then get out and sit comfortably behind myself. at 6"2 and 100kg this is not something I can do in the Ghia.

IHMO - this is why Falcon and commo sales are dropping.

The Outlander uses a smidgen less fuel around town, but it is about the utility of the vehicle !

[mik]

Originally Posted by stevz

Why must it be a new purchase? For the same price as a new cramped, dull, ugly, soulless imported buzzbox you could buy yourself a 1-2 year old Falcon, Commodore, Calais, G6E etc etc and get far more car for your money. I had to drive a Mazda 3 the other day and what a truly depressing experience it was compared to the Falcons and Commodores that I normally drive. If money is so important to people then I just can't understand why they would throw it away on a crappy little inferior buzzbox when you could get a 'proper' 1-2 year old car for the same price.

i agree with you, but i do think a lot of people see 2nd handys as vehicles that are already well worn and with the unknown of how they have been treated, and while the bigger cars generally are more effortless, quieter, safer, people will go with the small/medium car if it means they can purchase it cheaper and have all the things that go with a new car, new car smell, no wear and tear, no unknown history to worry about.

[mik]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

Just Guuna say .... :

I have just got the Mrs a Mitsu Outlander.

Having had this car for a week, I can see it easily replacing the Ghia as our family car.
When I sit comfortably in the front seat, I can then get out and sit comfortably behind myself. at 6"2 and 100kg this is not something I can do in the Ghia.

IHMO - this is why Falcon and commo sales are dropping.

The Outlander uses a smidgen less fuel around town, but it is about the utility of the vehicle !

let us know how you feel down the track when you`ve had time to evaluate it more thoroughly, will be interested to hear your thoughts on cvt and highway use.

[RAPID_BA]

My point is years ago, people saw the size of a falcodore and deemed it necessary as a family car or a work car.

But now the size is not deemed necessary? Even the towing ability is challenged by others.

I dont agree its about price point alone as then why wouldnt everyone buy a Kia Rio for a family car, it seats 5, carrys your stuff and is cheaper.

There is a minimum size that buyers will equate to a family car, it seems the falcadore has outgrown it or other previously smaller cars have "grown up" to cut the lunch of the falcadore

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

My point is years ago, people saw the size of a falcodore and deemed it necessary as a family car or a work car.

But now the size is not deemed necessary? Even the towing ability is challenged by others.

I dont agree its about price point alone as then why wouldnt everyone buy a Kia Rio for a family car, it seats 5, carrys your stuff and is cheaper.

There is a minimum size that buyers will equate to a family car, it seems the falcadore has outgrown it or other previously smaller cars have "grown up" to cut the lunch of the falcadore

People want size, look at last months Camry/Aurion results - they just dont want to / or cant pay a 15 grand premium for it.

[flooded one]

people don't want large sedans anymore. the people that did have moved to suvs because of the extra space or have downsided because smaller cars use less fuel. true in some cases. others not. unlike me. I buy a car I like that way i'll look after it!!!

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by Brazen

People want size, look at last months Camry/Aurion results - they just dont want to / or cant pay a 15 grand premium for it.

not just that look at the suv sales in the past 10 years. that's proof that people still want size

[nickdl]

If people want a car 5m and close to 2m wide to drive around the city, the chances are they would like more than 5 seats. The Territory is far more practical than a Falcon, for example, and yet is actually shorter, but doesn't compromise that much on drivability.

The Holden Torana concept car from the 2004 Motor show is exactly what the Falcodore needs to be. It was still RWD, but it was of a size between a 3 Series and a Commodore, so there was enough interior room, but is wasn't too big to be impractical.

The problem is Holden and Ford are reluctant to downsize after the Falcon massively outsold the smaller Commodore in the 80s. But back then there was less concern over efficiency, and the VB-VH Commodore was quite small in the whole scheme of things – about the size of a Cruze sedan.

[Jesmol]

For my $0.02 , I think the biggest problem for the Falcadore has been the loss of fleet sales. Sure private sales have dropped, but go back about 5 years, every sales rep pretty well drove a Falcadore. Nowdays its very rare to see this. MMAL tried to survive without fleet sales, and lost.

[mik]

Originally Posted by wildrider

people don't want large sedans anymore. the people that did have moved to suvs because of the extra space or have downsided because smaller cars use less fuel. true in some cases. others not. unlike me. I buy a car I like that way i'll look after it!!!

Sorry bud, not every one wants a light truck , or buzz box, but the fact you can get a buzz box for half the price in this cash strapped day and age makes the local cars hard to contemplate.

[zilo]

Just because a small car sells in greater numbers doesn't mean that it is as well built or safer or more economical.

It just means that it fits the price the masses can afford.

If a full sized Falcon was the same price as a Mazda 3 ( or really close) then it would be a different story in sales statistics.

The problem with GMH and Ford Aus is (in my opinion) is they are happy to keep raping the same market in spite of costs to build the same cars coming down.

[ego gtp]

Ok here's my opinion, first of all regardless of what anyone says the biggest reason is overall price!!!! I don't think size is that important unless as one member pointed out you need more than 5 seats,that's where the territory comes into the equation. Safety in smaller cheaper vehicles has improved heaps in the last 4 or 5 years look at the ancap guide. Imported cars in the same price range offer more standard features. In this day and age the wife/ partner has a lot more say in what the family car is especially if you have small children.

Now before everyone starts there rampage. I have a Daily ba pursuit. A weekender bf gtp. My wife's daily is a fg 2 gs. My daughter has a bf xr6.

I do love my falcons. My daughter is going to be selling her xr6 in the next 6 months and she said she would not be buying a new falcon as it wouldn't suit her needs.



So my last reason is that. How many on here had fathers who had falcons or holdens and then followed there foot steps and bought one second hand then you got older and could afford new you bought a new version of what you had. Now younger generation have much more choice and want new with the latest features so that is my opinion of why our staple cars are falling behind

Cheers Gary

[xisled]

Price is the biggest reason. Why spend the same on a 3 year old falcon out of warranty, when I can buy a brand new car for the same price and have the 3 year warranty.

Why would I spend 30 plus grand on a falcon when in 2 years’ time it will be worth around $20000. I got my 1 and half year old BA XT for $21000 back in 2005.

All the features of Falcon including safety can be purchased in a Camry.

Just look at the forum on how many people have problems with brand new Falcons. They tell their friends, they tell the forum, they basically tell whoever wants to listen how bad it is. This is also another factor, people do not see the Falcon as a reliable cheap to run car. Yes we are on a Ford forum and we all love our Falcons, but the general public who use the car to get to A to B do not see it this way.

1 other factor today is what a family is. 20 plus years ago, people had bigger families, people needed a bigger car to carry the kids. These days families are smaller and a small car will be able to handle the whole family.

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

There is no question that from the mid 90s our big cars Falcon and Commodore have provided more and more value for their price point. For $32k you can buy a Commodore Omega or Falcon XT, both a good bit of gear for the price.

In 1995 you could buy a Commodore executive or Falcon GLi for about the same money. The cars have evolved into a much better proposition for the money, features, motors, looks.

However, these cars have also shifted upwards in size and weight. Look at the history of the holden, went from a tank in the kingswood to a smallish big car for the VB-VL series, grew up a little with the VN-VS, then grew again for the VT-VZ and now in its biggest ever form the VE.

Ford have been a little more consistent, went from the tank XB-XC range to a smaller tank in the XD-XF, About the same size EA-EL, consistent size with the AU and then seemed to grow in size with BA-FG.

But the market looking for a family car or business looking for a fleet of cars now considers Camry / Lancer / Mazda 3 as a safe car with adequate size and power.

Does Commodore and Falcon need to rationalise their size, weight and with their superior powertrains really take the market back?

Thinking about it, almost all cars in any make or model are bigger now than they ever have been.

Falcon and Commodore should not reduce in size, infact, I wouldnt mind them to be slightly larger.

[mik]

at this stage by the majority so far it seems we are agreed, the major reason the big locals are losing market share is price and people are looking to spend less for the large majority of households,
it comes down to is price, we can argue about other small things, but when it comes down to it the mighty dollar is the biggest factor on car purchase.

[Agile]

Originally Posted by stevz

Why must it be a new purchase? For the same price as a new cramped, dull, ugly, soulless imported buzzbox you could buy yourself a 1-2 year old Falcon, Commodore, Calais, G6E etc etc and get far more car for your money. I had to drive a Mazda 3 the other day and what a truly depressing experience it was compared to the Falcons and Commodores that I normally drive. If money is so important to people then I just can't understand why they would throw it away on a crappy little inferior buzzbox when you could get a 'proper' 1-2 year old car for the same price.

Quote of the week!! You are spot on. Had a hire car for a week overseas[last week] and what a depressingly dull lifeless boring buzzer. Picked it up at the airport and had to put one of our suitcases on the back seat. Great to be back home and driving the LTD and the Territory. Back on topic, PRICE IS EVERYTHING !!! for the large volume sales. End of story.

[wookie836]

My XC is a old dinosaur but its a whole 500kgs lighter than a new FG, so if the FG was half a tonne lighter wouldnt its power to weight ratio be higher and combined with the torque of the barra, the fuel consumption would be a lot lower?
I dont understand why cars have to be so large now, i used to think that the XA-C's were massive but then i hopped in a fairlane and i think now that the old tank fairlanes are comparable to the size and weight of a new falcon, wtf happened?
I know a lot of people shop by their wallets over preference, some people are die hards for a brand/car type, others chop and change to suit their current situtations. But one thing a lot of people are concerned with these days is how much fuel a car would use over the next and that could be a good factor when buying a car within a certain price range [do i buy a cheap to run 4 cyl for a lot less than a more expensive larger car that uses more fuel?].
Wouldnt it be a smart idea if holden and ford chopped 500kgs or more out of these 'large' sedans and turn them into just sedans? putting the weight and size closer to a camry [which is as heavy as my XC and very similar in length and size] one would think the bean counters would have already thought about this and tried to put it in effect, that way at least the cars would be far more economic and powerful and that could be a factor that would work in their favour when people are buying a new car? i think these days falcons and commodores are made with fleet sales in mind because thats about all the business they get, id rather buy a old used car thats lighter and smaller than a new huge behemoth, besides the inital price difference between the two, i bet the running costs would be in favour for the older vehicle day to day.

[GQ_Smooth]

Originally Posted by ego gtp

Ok here's my opinion, first of all regardless of what anyone says the biggest reason is overall price!!!! I don't think size is that important unless as one member pointed out you need more than 5 seats,that's where the territory comes into the equation. Safety in smaller cheaper vehicles has improved heaps in the last 4 or 5 years look at the ancap guide. Imported cars in the same price range offer more standard features. In this day and age the wife/ partner has a lot more say in what the family car is especially if you have small children.

Now before everyone starts there rampage. I have a Daily ba pursuit. A weekender bf gtp. My wife's daily is a fg 2 gs. My daughter has a bf xr6.

I do love my falcons. My daughter is going to be selling her xr6 in the next 6 months and she said she would not be buying a new falcon as it wouldn't suit her needs.



So my last reason is that. How many on here had fathers who had falcons or holdens and then followed there foot steps and bought one second hand then you got older and could afford new you bought a new version of what you had. Now younger generation have much more choice and want new with the latest features so that is my opinion of why our staple cars are falling behind

Cheers Gary

Agreed, not to mention cars now have to compete with alot of other large ticket items that were never around before for the disposable income of singles and families.

Those that have a lot of disposable income now don't purchase a falcon/commie and those without much disposable income buy cheaper options (on the whole).

As said before, the fleets sales have walked away from the local options in droves.

[PHATXR8]

I was in Sydney last week with a couple of other full sized Anglo Saxon type blokes and we got into a Faord Fairlane taxi. We were all impressed with the leg room in the car! This is the reason why I still drive a falcon and why my wife drives a Territory. It is all about having a comfortable car that you car easily get in and out of easily, put a heap of full sized adults or kids in plus luggage, and then drive 5 or 6 hours in a day and do it in comfort.

The little buzz boxes might be ok for commuting around the city, but I will never own one because they are bloody terrible little things that are just too small for my comfort.

[nickdl]

Another thing that's changed over the past decade or so is that smaller cars are no longer stripped-out little buzz boxes. It used to be if you wanted something with all the best features you had to buy a medium or large car. Now the Focus Titanium probably has more in terms of equipment than a G6E, all for around $5-10k cheaper.