Cop loses job for giving small fines

divine_afg · 25-11-2009, 02:32 PM

A VICTORIA Police sergeant has been sacked for using his discretion to give speeding drivers smaller fines than the law required him to do.

The officer is believed to have booked about 500 people over two years around Avondale Heights, in Melbourne's west.

He reduced the penalty for drivers through means such as increasing a zone's speed limit on a ticket.

If a motorist was caught driving 80km/h in a 60km/h speed zone, the sergeant allegedly falsely increased the speed limit to 70km/h so the driver would be fined less and receive one instead of three demerit points off his licence.

A police spokeswoman said the officer had been dismissed following an Ethical Standards Department investigation into allegations of misconduct and perverting the course of justice.

Victoria Police argue that Deputy Commissioner Ken Lay sacked the officer because he had not been honest about what he was doing.

"All police officers are entitled to use discretionary powers when handling speeding offences, whether that be through the issue of infringement notices, cautions or other form of lawful action," the spokeswoman said.

"However we expect that the exercise of this discretion must be transparent and open to scrutiny."

The officer is appealing his sacking at the police appeals board with the support of the Police Association.

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 02:35 PM

The police are there to administer the law not make it up as they see fit.

Brazen · 25-11-2009, 02:47 PM

YellowFire he was using his discretion, next time an officer pulls you over for speeding and notices a tailight out will you demand that he give you a ticket for both infractions or would a warning on the taillight be more appropriate?

The police are there to enforce the law, which may mean using discretion or giving cautions. Reducing the vehicles speed may also be a way of giving the equipment a margin of error, the difference between one and three demerit points is sizable and by allowing a buffer it is fairer to the motorists. He also issued 500 tickets over two years which is a bloody lot, so not as if he wasnt doing his job.

It does not suprise me at all that this is happening in Victoria, absoloutely disgusting.

LowEL2XR8 · 25-11-2009, 03:07 PM

Seems like he was trying to do his job but also help those people out at the same time.
Maybe he just should of cautioned them instead which is legal, instead of falsifying the ticket which is not.
He was doing the right thing but going the wrong way about it.

FalconXR6 · 25-11-2009, 03:12 PM

This now sets the standard.

Expect all traffic officers to issue accurate fines - no more figure fudging if you've got nice cleveage.

It's now game on moles.

Peter B - CV8 · 25-11-2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

Seems like he was trying to do his job but also help those people out at the same time.
Maybe he just should of cautioned them instead which is legal, instead of falsifying the ticket which is not.
He was doing the right thing but going the wrong way about it.

That's the way I see it as well. His heart was in the right place - but he shouldn't have fabricated the speed zone figure. Don't know why he just wouldn't mark down the offenders actual speed..... (unless these stat's are held somewhere & looked poor on his record/quota).

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

YellowFire he was using his discretion, next time an officer pulls you over for speeding and notices a tailight out will you demand that he give you a ticket for both infractions or would a warning on the taillight be more appropriate?

Would I demand it? no. Would I accept it? yes. I recently got fined for something similar to your example and I took it on the chin. I'm not a fan of police only applying the law to certain people as they see fit. If the law is unfair it should be changed, not left to police to ignore or modify.

BOSHOG · 25-11-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

The police are there to administer the law not make it up as they see fit.

agreed 100%

ive been given softer penalties before but never by raising the speed limit on the ticket, by saying i was doing less than i actually was. there is a difference, not to me really, but to his superiors.

Brazen · 25-11-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

I'm not a fan of police only applying the law to certain people as they see fit. If the law is unfair it should be changed, not left to police to ignore or modify.

Incorrect, they are allowed discretion to ignore or modify it. It is quite common for a person committing numerous offences to be fined or charged with less. Many of the laws, guidelines and procedures have a preamble which explains the intent or the law. The intent may be to modify driver behaivour or improve road safety, in my opinion he is still enforcing the intent of the law. Of course discretion can be abused, but I think someone getting the sack for this particular issue is extreme.

For me it reflects the nanny-state culture permeating the state governments of this country for the last 10-15 years.

4Vman · 25-11-2009, 03:41 PM

Right idea executed in the wrong manner... tough love but he did the wrong thing.

outback_ute · 25-11-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by divine_afg

If a motorist was caught driving 80km/h in a 60km/h speed zone, the sergeant allegedly falsely increased the speed limit to 70km/h so the driver would be fined less and receive one instead of three demerit points off his licence.

I think the bold bit is where he went wrong - if he reduced the motorists speed that is what police are entitled to do as per their discretion. I must say it is a pretty heavy penalty however.

flappist · 25-11-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

The police are there to administer the law not make it up as they see fit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOSHOG

agreed 100%

ive been given softer penalties before but never by raising the speed limit on the ticket, by saying i was doing less than i actually was. there is a difference, not to me really, but to his superiors.

So as soon as it is noticed that your car has been modded it should be put off the road until it can be confirmed to comply with all ADRs.

And if your modded car is found not to comply or is not roadworthy even by the smallest margin like dirty windscreen or lights or maybe 1db too loud or whatever it should be confiscated and towed at your expense.

EVERY TIME you are random breath tested or licensed checked.

Well that is the law..........

dom_105 · 25-11-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

Seems like he was trying to do his job but also help those people out at the same time.

We can't have any of that in the People's Republic of Brackistan

Wally · 25-11-2009, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by divine_afg

"However we expect that the exercise of this discretion must be transparent and open to scrutiny."

.

What a joke that is. Either the officer has freedom of judgement or he doesn't. He exercised that choice only to find he didn't have discretionary power after all.

If marking down a speed reading is dishonest then raising the zone speed is just as dishonest, but if marking down is discretionary, then raising the zone speed should be too for consistency.

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

So as soon as it is noticed that your car has been modded it should be put off the road until it can be confirmed to comply with all ADRs.

Isn't that what engineering reports are for? If your car is modified do it legally or keep it for the track.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

And if your modded car is found not to comply or is not roadworthy even by the smallest margin like dirty windscreen or lights or maybe 1db too loud or whatever it should be confiscated and towed at your expense.

I'm not aware of the law regarding confiscating cars for dirty windscreens or noise. Your local laws may differ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

EVERY TIME you are random breath tested or licensed checked.

Well that is the law..........

Why not? It happens to me every time. No licence = stay off the road.

Gaz · 25-11-2009, 04:05 PM

shocking - Hopefully it is overturned.

Discretion should be used far more often, in the case of speeding two cars doing the same speed (over the limit) on the same bit of road can be very different scenarios.

Lets say both doing 75 in a 60 zone, one in busy traffic and swerving in and out of lanes, the other at 10pm simply cruising along. Theoretically the same offence, in practice they have very different risks and effects on traffic and as such discretion in these cases is good as it puts the punishment based on the surrounding circumstances.

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Incorrect, they are allowed discretion to ignore or modify it. It is quite common for a person committing numerous offences to be fined or charged with less.

"the sergeant allegedly falsely increased the speed limit to 70km/h"

He didn't use discretion. He issued tickets with falsified information.

Wally · 25-11-2009, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

"the sergeant allegedly falsely increased the speed limit to 70km/h"

He didn't use discretion. He issued tickets with falsified information.

Mind telling us what discretion the officer does have?

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Mind telling us what discretion the officer does have?

Does have or should have? I'm sure they have plenty. I've heard great stories about people being let off while others are booked and vice versa. Hell I've seen it myself.

Should have? Very little in my opinion. If the laws suck then lets get them changed rather than relying on a police officer to bend them.

RG · 25-11-2009, 04:27 PM

Yellow Fire I take it you are this officer's partner and that you were standing next to him each and every time he issued a ticket?

If not maybe be a little quieter as you really don't know what you are on about.

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

Yellow Fire I take it you are this officer's partner and that you were standing next to him each and every time he issued a ticket?

If not maybe be a little quieter as you really don't know what you are on about.

I'm only going off what the media report said.

Fireblade · 25-11-2009, 04:32 PM

I to believe everything the Media says

RG · 25-11-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

I'm only going off what the media report said.

Exactly, a media report fed to them by the spin doctors at VICPOL who will only let you know what they want you to know.

There are always two sides to a story remember.

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

Exactly, a media report fed to them by the spin doctors at VICPOL who will only let you know what they want you to know.

There are always two sides to a story remember.

Oh I agree 100% with you there. If this guy is innocent then I hope he clears his name.

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

I to believe everything the Media says

It would be a pretty dull thread if we just posted "oh I don't believe it" over & over.

RG · 25-11-2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

Oh I agree 100% with you there. If this guy is innocent then I hope he clears his name.

I doubt he is innocent, I do however think that there is a lot more to this story than what VICPOL media are telling us. I have had many cops do the exact same for me and I have no nice breasts and I am far from good looking.

Some cops do actually feel the same as us about revenue raising and feel they can do a better job by doing what this cop has done. All the people that he has fined will have a greater respect for the Police because of him.

**ebxr8240** · 25-11-2009, 04:46 PM

Sheesh!!!
He was FINE cop too....

4Vman · 25-11-2009, 05:02 PM

Police should, without fear be able to use discretion, within reasonable limits, in every circumstance.
Without all the facts its impossible to say how and why he did it that way rather than just lowering the detected speed....

BOSHOG · 25-11-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

So as soon as it is noticed that your car has been modded it should be put off the road until it can be confirmed to comply with all ADRs.

And if your modded car is found not to comply or is not roadworthy even by the smallest margin like dirty windscreen or lights or maybe 1db too loud or whatever it should be confiscated and towed at your expense.

EVERY TIME you are random breath tested or licensed checked.

Well that is the law..........

what are you getting at?

BOSHOG · 25-11-2009, 05:13 PM

i dont think he got sacked for using discretion, he got sacked for raising the legal speed limit on his tickets, theres a big difference.

its fraud, and he left a pretty good paper trail

as myself others have said, there is a better way, just write down a slower speed for the driver as has happened for me