Ureka, I found the reason

[Spudz27]

Bingo, I just found the link to why kids of today are so screwed up. In a society where both parents work, these kids go to daycare, however this wouldn't be an issue if daycare's were allowed to punish kids, but instead kids can do whatever they want with no consequence. My partner got a talking to for putting our son in time out for being naughty. Apparantly your not allowed to put them in time out. Or just punish them at all. So either I am going in there to tell her boss he is to be punished or I have to pay more and send him elsewhere so my partner does not have to deal with not being allowed to punish him, whilst he acts up in front of her. Or just pull him out all together (I am now on disability :( ) and he can be at home with me where he will be punished for doing the wrong thing, I can even see he is improving slightly since being at home 3 days a week with me, but after daycare he is always a little so and so.

So there you have it, it isn't just crappy parents causing kids of today to be screwed up, daycare's are just peputating the isssue. What chance does a child have in life when they grow up in an environment where the rules state a child is allowed to do the wrong thing, but you can't punish them.

[05_ENFORCER]

OMG, good luck on that theory bro


,.

[madwag]

gone are the days when grandparents who live near by take care of their grandchildren instead of day care. At least the kid can get a hug when they are crying.

[Kevxr8Leexr6]

I go to Daddy day care. its only when i get home i get punnished. lol.

[2011G6E]

Parents have known this for years now since the social engineers gained power...

Same with the rise of bullies...sure, there used to be the odd bully when I was at school and high school between 1971 and 1980, but they always knew if they took things too far, they would get the cuts, as well as a call to their parents. Back then, the parents wouldn't turn up at the school and berate the teachers for punishing their little darling...the parents would usually say "wait until you get home" where the kid would cop more.

If there are no consequences for your actions, there is no learning. You won't realise that what you have done is wrong unless there is a firm, tangible negative outcome.

Our youngest son...now 21...came home with a letter from school back when he was in grade 10 saying he was suspended for a week. What had he done wrong, I demanded. A kid who had been bullying him went too far and swung a punch at my son, who shoved him back. A teacher saw it, the principal assessed what had been going on, and then...suspended both of them. I got my wife to ring and ask why...I was in too much rage to do so...and the reasoning as to why the victim got suspended as well as the perp, was that "it would be unfair and make the aggressor feel "victimised" and "excluded". Funnily enough my rage didn't subside after hearing that gem of logic...

Parents are one of two extremes nowadays...at one end of the spectrum, parents are afraid to use more than time outs and other new-age bullcrap like that to discipline their kids, and the kids damn well know they have might on their side...legal might. They truly know all thier rights but none of their responsibilities.
At the other end are parents who literally don't do anything...they give all responsibility for controlling their kids to whoever else is around, however, if a teacher or policeman dare say something harsh to thier little darling, they will abuse the authority figure soundly for daring to try and hold back their babies freedom to do as they please.
This is why teachers...especially male teachers...are leaving the profession in droves. It's why my brother took early retirement at 55 rather than put up with a procession of parents complaining that someone had stifled their little innocent darlings way of expressing their individuality.

The rise of this "schoolies week" and "gap year" rubbish doesn't help. We used to have a "tradition" as well, a "right of passage" when we left high school...we'd all gather on the last day of school, say "thank Christ that's over", and then we all went straight out and got jobs...

There is an old and very true saying..."if kids today think their parents and teachers are hard on them, wait until they have a boss..."

[poppa smurf]

many more reasons for societies downfall than simply daycare......the loss of the extended family is the main one, relations to give guidance and assurance to parents and uncles and aunties to stand in the little ones corner when mum or dad get a bit rough

I know its been done to death but "when I was a boy"......family gatherings were a huge affair, xmas was standing room only, so many aunties that a kid was battered and bruised by the time he got from one loving adult to another

so many siblings that we had to use a cowbell and an alpine yodler to get them all back inside for meals or bed

I never ever hit my kids, my son never hits his kids, naughty corner was never used, it was never necessary.....I have fantastic well behaved kids and my grandkids are coming up just the same

when mum and dad get a bit frustrated or just plain worn out, the littleys come down here to grandads house and we have playtime for a couple of days

a lot of parents dont have that now and its a bloody big hole in their life.......kids dont come with an instruction manual but us old farts have "been there" and "done that".......that experience for parents and the solid backup is invaluable to worn out, overworked parents

a lot of parents simply default to their neanderthal past and belt the little fellers when the frustration gets too much then they have the nerve to call the beating "teaching respect"......that just teaches the little feller that violence is okay

anyway I could go on forever as kids are my favourite subject, suffice to say....the daycare is not the problem......society and its breakdown is the problem

the days of extended family is unfortunately gone and without this I'm afraid the child and the parents are doomed to continue making mistakes and passing these mistakes on forever

sit your little one down, get down to his/her level and explain that the behaviour shown by some kiddies in daycare is not the correct way to go

start a reward board........but most of all show and give them all the love in the world......take time out to listen to the little ones problems, talk it through , patience and love will raise a fantastic child

[Professor Farnsworth]

the internet is #1 on my list of society's downfall. Back when i used it in the mid 90's it was just full of nerds. Those were the days.

[Road_Warrior]

Absolute crap, daycare is not the problem. If you think your particular day care centre is an issue, then find another.

Before I had kids, I used to think daycare centres were a problem for kid's discipline and so forth, but then I had my own kid and realise that it is all about the parents, the child's home life and what boundaries you set at home. Broken and/or dysfunctional families or family life is a problem - kids need routine to given them normality in life otherwise they grow up thinking the dysfunction is normal and when you try and change the behaviour later, they don't understand because what they are doing seems like a 'normal' life to them.

The daycare centre my little bloke goes to won't keep any kids on that are violent/bullies/hit others constantly, they will ring the parent up and say come get your kid and if the behaviour continues you will have to find another place to go because they know that the greatest impact on a child's upbringing starts in the home.

[XR6_661]

I put it down to personality and a thing I call "Little poop syndrome"....except with a more colourful word in place of poop.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by XR6_661

I put it down to personality and a thing I call "Little poop syndrome"....except with a more colourful word in place of poop.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

I also think social engineers and other assorted do-gooders have had quite long enough to prove that their theories on "discipline" (or lack thereof) work...and it is quite plain that they don't...it's just that no one in a position of authority is prepared to tell them to bugger off into the background and put things back the way they were. Parents with real power, kids with no "rights" beyond the right to be safe and the right to be educated, and teachers and other authority figures who have the power to enforce rules, swiftly and effectively.

"Freedom" is a much abused word, especially amongst young people and children...I have had nieces who simply will not do as they're told, telling their parents that "No one will ever tell me what to do...I'll act as I want and too bad if no one else likes it!".

Try that philosophy when you go to try and work somewhere...enjoy your productive future on the unemployment lines...

Life is about rules, on one level or another. Anarchy looks fun to the internet heroes who say it should be the way society should work...until you think about it a little deeper and realise that a society with total freedom from rules might mean you can go out and have a toke of a joint on your front verandah while giving a passing cop the finger (come to that, in a true anarchical society "without rules" there would be no police, or courts, or laws) ...but it also means that the guy who just kicked in your back door to steal your DVD player has the right to do that in freedom as well...

Kids need more than "guidelines" to interpret as they see fit...they need firmly laid down rules and limits and boundaries, and they also need the knowledge that if they step over those boundaries, there will be consequences...possibly unpleasant ones.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by Spudz27

Ureka, I found the reason

Don’t you mean Eureka?

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

many more reasons for societies downfall than simply daycare......the loss of the extended family is the main one, relations to give guidance and assurance to parents and uncles and aunties to stand in the little ones corner when mum or dad get a bit rough

I know its been done to death but "when I was a boy"......family gatherings were a huge affair, xmas was standing room only, so many aunties that a kid was battered and bruised by the time he got from one loving adult to another

so many siblings that we had to use a cowbell and an alpine yodler to get them all back inside for meals or bed

I never ever hit my kids, my son never hits his kids, naughty corner was never used, it was never necessary.....I have fantastic well behaved kids and my grandkids are coming up just the same

when mum and dad get a bit frustrated or just plain worn out, the littleys come down here to grandads house and we have playtime for a couple of days

a lot of parents dont have that now and its a bloody big hole in their life.......kids dont come with an instruction manual but us old farts have "been there" and "done that".......that experience for parents and the solid backup is invaluable to worn out, overworked parents

a lot of parents simply default to their neanderthal past and belt the little fellers when the frustration gets too much then they have the nerve to call the beating "teaching respect"......that just teaches the little feller that violence is okay

anyway I could go on forever as kids are my favourite subject, suffice to say....the daycare is not the problem......society and its breakdown is the problem

the days of extended family is unfortunately gone and without this I'm afraid the child and the parents are doomed to continue making mistakes and passing these mistakes on forever

sit your little one down, get down to his/her level and explain that the behaviour shown by some kiddies in daycare is not the correct way to go

start a reward board........but most of all show and give them all the love in the world......take time out to listen to the little ones problems, talk it through , patience and love will raise a fantastic child

Just quoting this post for truth, its just too bad for me it's taken 3 years to figure this out.

[SB076]

Things that I think have changed
1) Break down of family into individuals
2) We are more self centred, more focused on consumption
3) Too many distractions, too much information not enough quality
4) Relationships -previously you would interact with people, now we interact with devices that interact with people
5) Beauracrazy political correctness gone mad, too many experts tell us what to do, we have actually lost a lot of our freedom, we are no longer responsible for our own actions.

I heard a lady speak about her wanting a kid, her reasoning is that it will complete her - my first thought was ok thats great, but was it in it for the kid? What will happen to this kid if it doesnt complete her?

[Russ]

I think seeing as the government lays down the rules on how you should or shouldn't raise your kids then it must be their fault not the parents. Let's face it, no real harm ever came to any of us who were born and raised in the "era of discipline" I used to get the occasional belt across the backside when I was young, but I'd sure as hell think twice about doing the same thing again in a hurry My wife and I raised our 2 sons (now both young men) to show respect and be responsible, they would get a smack on the bum or the hand if they were naughty but we were never ever abusive towards them. Unfortunately there are many people out there who are not fit to be parents but seeing as the government keeps throwing $1000's at them to pop them out, what else can be expected This subject could be debated on forever and a day but I doubt that will change anything ever again :(

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Spudz27

Bingo, I just found the link to why kids of today are so screwed up. In a society where both parents work, these kids go to daycare, however this wouldn't be an issue if daycare's were allowed to punish kids, but instead kids can do whatever they want with no consequence.

Not true everywhere, my wife does Family Day Care in our home and there is a process for dealing with naughty kids and it does include some time-out, there are other processes for discipline as well. Most parents want their kids kept in line, my wife has never ever had an issue and she has been doing FDC for 26 years, she always acts within the policies of FDC.

[Spudz27]

This topic was a bit tongue in cheek to do with my partner being given a talking to for trying to discipline her own child. I didn't for one minute believe daycares are to blame. There are so many factors it isn't funny. Sometimes I forget that on the internet, people don't get sarcasm. Just read the topic title and the first line of the topic, that in itself basically says this is me, just being sarcastic to a situation that was in itself quite ridiculuos, just thought at the same time I would complain that daycares no longer are allowed to issue punishments.

[Spudz27]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Not true everywhere, my wife does Family Day Care in our home and there is a process for dealing with naughty kids and it does include some time-out, there are other processes for discipline as well. Most parents want their kids kept in line, my wife has never ever had an issue and she has been doing FDC for 26 years, she always acts within the policies of FDC.

If we owned our home and it was large enough, we would be doing FDC. My partner hates working for her current employer, she said she is sick of being told you can't do this, you can't do this. It is basically just sit back and let the kids do what they want, because it isn't nice to tell them off. She even had to take some paintings off the wall, because (and not a joke) some children might feel belittled, embarrassed and upset by having others see their artwork, that they might not feel inside is good enough.

[Aquarius]

Child care is an huge industry that every person believes they have a 'right' to.

I ask, why do people need childcare?
Where there is one parent, I get it
Where there are 2 parents and both are working, why isn't one of them at home with the kid(s), I can tell you why, because they are generally greedy, a 40sq house, a $300,000 mortgage, 2 cars both under 2 years old, 50inch LED TV, Blue Ray player playing in the in-home cinema, holidays overseas somewhere, etc, etc

People need to get a grip, and realise that family is everything, money is not

[grandpa_spec_F6]

I'm marrying to a very large family, I come from a small family and I'm very greatful that I will have a large support base to assist with raising our own, I don't know how my mother ever managed it.

It was just mum and I growing up, I'd be in daycare from 6am some mornings, picked up at 6pm. Same with before and after school care when I was of schooling age.

Do you know the difference between then and today? If I played up at daycare, I got a smack, and do you know what happened when mum turned up? I got ANOTHER smack! But she was fair and just, I would always be told WHY I was in trouble, WHAT I'd done wrong and the REASON it was unacceptable behaviour. If I copped it I knew it was for a DAMN GOOD REASON.

At school we had a number of very troubled students, one that I vividly remember being picked up by a male teacher who had his arms locked behind the students head, this was to prevent him from not only harming others, but also himself...10 mins later, kid calms down, goes to principle to be talked to and class resumes. These days he'd probably get the sack.

After witnessing and experiencing all of these "atrocities" I am now aged 22, I'm getting married, just finished a bachelors degree, have a healthy respect for people and know boundaries / where to draw the line and have been full time employeed for the last 3 years in a well paying IT job... obviously I'm one screwed up individual

Originally Posted by Aquarius

People need to get a grip, and realise that family is everything, money is not

THIS ^^

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

I never ever hit my kids, my son never hits his kids, naughty corner was never used, it was never necessary.....I have fantastic well behaved kids and my grandkids are coming up just the same

when mum and dad get a bit frustrated or just plain worn out, the littleys come down here to grandads house and we have playtime for a couple of days

a lot of parents simply default to their neanderthal past and belt the little fellers when the frustration gets too much then they have the nerve to call the beating "teaching respect"......that just teaches the little feller that violence is okay

start a reward board........but most of all show and give them all the love in the world......take time out to listen to the little ones problems, talk it through , patience and love will raise a fantastic child

Must be great living in your fairytale poppa, out here in the real world im sure the majority of us see it differently.
Whats there to get frustrated at if life raising kids is all roses as you would lead us to believe, why send the kids away, unless they fear letting their true emotions overcome the placid outlook they have been taught to portray.

Why is it that everytime this subject comes up the people who dont discipline their children with a smack refer to it as a 'beating', i was never 'beaten', not unless the back of a hand across my **** is considered a 'beating'.
But it makes it sound so much better to label it as a beating as it sensationalises it hey.
I was smacked as a kid when i stepped out of line, im not violent, my kids are smacked too if need be, they arent violent.

My wifes brother was never smacked, he was shown endless love by his parent.
Today he's a drug addict who used the threat of bikie bashings to get his loving mother to pay his $1000 per fortnight drug bill.
He used to joke that he didnt need any inheritence, he would spend every cent they had before they died, and he has.
They've both returned to work from retirement to recoup some form of financial future, he still calls regularly, that second retirement is a long way off...

My eldest sons school has just implemented a rewards scheme for doing the right thing, my son asked yesterday what he gets for hanging out the washing...great idea, now he expects something in return for everything he does, why not, his educators are happy to oblige.

truth is, there is no blanket rule for every kid, each situation should be dealt with according to its merits, and it should be up to the parent to deal with each issue as they see fit.

My wife and i took our eldest 2 to see our GP 8 years ago. At the time they fought like cat and dog as brother and sister do and didnt listen to a word we said.
This was around the time when ritalin became the drug of choice for parents who couldnt be bothered and was handed out like candy.
For the record i believe some kids do need intervention from prescription drugs, but not every kid with a chip on their shoulder.

Our GP referred us to a Child Psychologist as i made it quite clear the offer of drugs to subdue them wasnt something i would accept lightly.
Upon spending an hour with the Psychologist we learned some valuable lessons.
First of all, our kids were normal.
Second of all, discipline needs to be broken down into 3 'baskets'

1, for minor issues let it go, they are kids after all.

2, for times when they need to know they have done wrong and should be spoken to in a manner which gets the message through

3, for times when the behaviour could lead to serious injury etc. there is nothing wrong with a smack, to let them know they have stepped beyond the boundaries of fair play.

But thats just a Child Psychologists thinking...

[poppa smurf]

no fairytale mate, ......reality for me.....I love my extended family.....in return I am greatly loved.......I would never do anything to harm them and that includes physical abuse

paint it any colour you like, once you yell at your kids or assault them you have lost.......many other ways to bring discipline into a child's world

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

paint it any colour you like, once you yell at your kids or assault them you have lost.......many other ways to bring discipline into a child's world

Must be some fragile kids out there then, hope they dont join the armed services if yelling and getting rubbed up is detrimental...

[poppa smurf]

one would hope that we never stoop to the level of placing our kids in harms way.....I understand some cultures do!

kids become adults and the only positive guide lines in their younger lives is us.....bad behaviour as well as good and responsible behaviour is mimicked, family values instilled in the young years as well as tools to deal with almost any given situation without aggression should be in place now

my son is far from "fragile"....he is 34 years old, a father of 3, about 6'4" around 130 kilo's of solid muscle, a retained fireman currently in training to become full time, frequents the gym 5 times a week seeking to leave his current position of some 18 years

to call him fragile I think would be a mistake.......to call him the pride and joy of my life and part of my reason for living would be the truth

there are a lot of external influences placed on our children, ...how they deal with them is unique only to them.....if we dont give them the skills and training to deal then they will fall back on what they know

I'm fully aware that the original post was tongue in cheek however external influences do have a large part to play in the upbringing of our children sadly some have greater influence than others

daycare is one of these influences

[Kable72]

Nothing wrong with a bit of a smack to set a child in line.

[pursuit57]

Originally Posted by Kable72

Nothing wrong with a bit of a smack to set a child in line.

Agree totally..
There was 7 of us with our parents brought up in the bush - we all copped the strap, belt or clip around the ear when necessary & local cops giving us a boot up the **** n taken home !
We all turned out OK

[2011G6E]

I refer to what I said about if kids think parents and teacher are bad, wait until they have a boss.

Too many young people find this out when they first enter the workforce...they are in for a rude awakening when they discover that they can't "do anything they set their mind to"...that "aiming for the stars and don't let anyone tell you that you can't do something" has no place in the real world. That "You're an individual and don't let anyone stifle that" also is hooey when it comes to being a member of a workforce.

They are shocked when they start work and cannot walk into management position or one with their own office, but rather are told they have to prove their worth by cleaning up, getting coffee, sorting files, and running errands. Once they've proved their worth, maybe then they'll be allowed to start climbing the ladder. But for the vast majority, you will start in a crap job, and just keep on doing that crap job for many years. If something better comes along, by all means, try and go for it, but don't expect employers to value your need for self-expression and desire for flexibility in work hours to suit your personal needs.

You will most likely go to work somewhere that you have to wear a uniform of some type (be that a set type of suit or dress or shirt right up to "a uniform"), where your work hours are set in stone, where it is hard to get annual leave (and that almost certainly won't be at the same time as all your friends so you can go and socialise...sometimes it won't even be at the same time as your wife or your kids get their holidays), where you must simply knuckle down and conform to the way the business does things (rather than how you think they should do things), where your boss and managers above you are, literally, god, with power over your life. In return, you are given money and expected to turn up on time every day, to be loyal and do as you are told. If you prove yourself worthy, maybe later you will be allowed to progress to higher positions...but most likely you won't...you will be one of dozens of faceless drones who will just have to be content with what they have in life.

Scary thought, isn't it kiddies? But that's life...Life isn't Summer Bay or Friends, where people don't seem to have actual jobs, but whose life revolves around thier social activities and sitting on a beach or in coffee shops or being on endless holiday. Your social activities and spending time with friends will pale into the background, and you will become just like your parents, trying their hardest to get by and survive in a competitive work environment where your freedom of expression and individuality is crushed so that you conform to a set of rules that you have no say over. The sooner you accept it the sooner you will feel more happy with your lot in life.


Every kid should be told that when they start high school...the ones not still in a state of shock after a week or so should do alright...

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by pursuit57

Agree totally..
There was 7 of us with our parents brought up in the bush - we all copped the strap, belt or clip around the ear when necessary & local cops giving us a boot up the **** n taken home !
We all turned out OK

This is another point...we did nearly all "turn out OK". The do-gooders have got society to a point where real discipline is seen as "damaging" to fragile little egos, so there is no discipline of a tangible sort. A smack on the bum is classed as child abuse by these idiots.
There were always laws that forbade you beating your kid to a pulp or bashing them...people knew the difference between a smack and people who bash their kids to a black-eyes bleeding pulp. Parents who abused their kids always got in trouble. The problem is that the definition of what encompasses "child abuse", like sexual assault, has become that wide over the years that almost anything can be classed as "abuse", and kids damn well know it too.

I would challenge anyone to go park near a school at lunchtime...maybe walk into a shop across the road from a high school and just observe (not that kind of "observe, you pervs )...look at the general way a great number of the kids act and speak and treat older people...and then ask yourself "What would have happened to me if I'd have acted like that when I was a kid?".

I think I know what your answer would be...

There is literally zero real evidence that a smack on the bum does anyone any harm...but social engineers have made it so that we can't do it "just in case". Kids have to be cotton wool wrapped and protected from the big bad world, brought up until they leave school in a way that means they have no concept of actions resulting in reactions beyond a few soft words and time-outs.
When these little dears leave school and are thrust into the real world, they are in for the biggest shock of their lives, moving into a world of rules and constraints and legal obligations for them to do the right thing...and many never get over that shock.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

one would hope that we never stoop to the level of placing our kids in harms way.....I understand some cultures do!

kids become adults and the only positive guide lines in their younger lives is us.....bad behaviour as well as good and responsible behaviour is mimicked, family values instilled in the young years as well as tools to deal with almost any given situation without aggression should be in place now

my son is far from "fragile"....he is 34 years old, a father of 3, about 6'4" around 130 kilo's of solid muscle, a retained fireman currently in training to become full time, frequents the gym 5 times a week seeking to leave his current position of some 18 years

to call him fragile I think would be a mistake.......to call him the pride and joy of my life and part of my reason for living would be the truth

I was not reffering to your kids in particular, but simply pointing out that your claim in regards to 'once you yell at kids you've lost them' is a generalisation and not applicable when in relation to each individual.
This is why i say there is no blanket rule to suit all.

It is wonderful that you have been able to raise your particular children by the means that you have portrayed, to claim that it is the way to deal with every child is wishful thinking as children come from many different social and environmental demographics.

My children have been raised in Adelaides northern suburbs, a somewhat rough area. To instill a bit of mungral in them will certainly help if the need arises.
It can also help with resillience, as my eldest displayed last Friday whilst being harassed by a car load of bogans for nothing more than his push bike of choice and its apparent influence on his sexuality, he simply rode on, he certainly didnt feel the need to exercise his underlying violent streak you claim he must have as a result of a few smacks.

[BENT_8]

@2011G6E...I have a saying which sums it up fairly well.

'Shoot for the stars by all means, but dont be disheartened if you only hit the top of a stobie pole'

In other words, 'life is what you make of it, sure dream big, but keep it real and never forget where you came from and how you got there'.

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

'once you yell at kids you've lost them'

Can I just say in my case this rings true, because unless I speak calmly to my son to pick up something he will not do it. I can yell at him til I'm black and blue in the face but he just ignores me and goes so far as to smack me back if I tell him off (which sets me off even more as I find that completely disrespectful).

Yes, I also give him a smack if he's been naughty (such as throwing his toys across the room) but he will just cry and run to his mother.