3L - 195kw, 620nm, 6.1L/100km - Build a bloody Turbo Diesel Falcon already!

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by whales

Perhaps Maccas is waiting for you.

Dont forget Holden had RTS,IRS,SRS,ESC, LHD, a supercharged and a turbocharged engines all long before Ford did.

So back into your Big Mac box

The Territory was the first australian car with ESC, and curtain airbags.

And the Falcon was the first to be LHD, in the US. Which the Australian Falcon was based on originally.

[spvd02]

Originally Posted by whales

Perhaps Maccas is waiting for you.

Dont forget Holden had RTS,IRS,SRS,ESC, LHD, a supercharged and a turbocharged engines all long before Ford did.

So back into your Big Mac box

Oh, and don't forget the highly successful SIDI! RTS and IRS were both rubbish in the Holdens, their supercharged models removed from the markt upon the introduction of the XR6T (to save embarrassment).

Just because Holden were first, doesn't mean they were so good. A lot of their 'firsts' have been sub-par. Why give them credit for that?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by whales

Blah blah blah

Holden are selling at least 3 commodores to every falcon and making a truck load more profit.

Holden must be laughing at the way Ford is going

Nearly as hard as I am laughing at you........

[Road_Warrior]

Holden's 'first' turbo motor was a goddamn Nissan engine anyway!! At least Ford's is home grown and developed in house, not some half arsed plug and play solution

(yes I know the RB30 is not a half arsed engine)

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by spvd02

Oh, and don't forget the highly successful SIDI! RTS and IRS were both rubbish in the Holdens, their supercharged models removed from the markt upon the introduction of the XR6T (to save embarrassment).

Just because Holden were first, doesn't mean they were so good. A lot of their 'firsts' have been sub-par. Why give them credit for that?

Thats usually the case, Holden introduce something first that is old technology then Ford release it a bit later thats better.

ie. Holden had coils sprung rear end first, with their Panhard Rod, then Ford introduced the better Watts Link. Holden had IRS first with the crappy semi trailling arm setup that chewed rear tyres, then Ford bought out the top spec double wishbone setup for AU, then multilink for BA in 2002. Holden didn't go multilink till 2006 in VE. Holden had 4 speed auto first that was the clunky non electronic 4 speed, Ford bought all the smoother full electronic BTR.

And Holden still persist with the dodgy McPherson strut front end that is usually only used in small cars, Ford used the superior wishbone front end and I think now they use a virtual pivot front end that is a leap forward again.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by whales

Blah blah blah

Holden are selling at least 3 commodores to every falcon and making a truck load more profit.

Holden must be laughing at the way Ford is going

Now ...... this is not the topic and either stick to the topic or do not post ...... but ...........

The only fact you have correct in that sentence is that Holden do sell more cars .... 3 times the number? The rest is very very very wrong, a very big no. You do not need to be number 1 or 2 or 3 just to turn a good profit and infact FORD AU is doing quite well. Better than Holden? Better go find out and you might be surprised .....

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by spvd02

Oh, and don't forget the highly successful SIDI! RTS and IRS were both rubbish in the Holdens, their supercharged models removed from the markt upon the introduction of the XR6T (to save embarrassment).

Sorry two little corrections (that dont effect you point too much)
The Supercharged model was not a Holden, it was a HSV.
It was embarrassed - yes - but not by the Falcon Turbo, by the standard falcon I6 !

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

Sorry two little corrections (that dont effect you point too much)
The Supercharged model was not a Holden, it was a HSV.
It was embarrassed - yes - but not by the Falcon Turbo, by the standard falcon I6 !

The Supercharged engine was available in Holdens. I know of two people personally, one who had a Supercharged VY Berlina, and another a Stateman. Very underated engine in my opinion, great mid-range power which is hidden in the stats.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by whales

Dont forget Holden had RTS,IRS,SRS,ESC, LHD, a supercharged and a turbocharged engines all long before Ford did.

GMH and TLA, EFI, HSV, ABS, RTS, SRS, IRS, LHD, RHD, ESC, ETC...blah blah blah. The supercharged engine came prepackaged from Buick, and it was a piece of crap back then just as it is today. GM has nothing on the Ford turbos. That includes the 4.0 I-6 and EcoBoost engines. The only exciting engine GM makes right now is the 6.6L V8 Duramax. Thanks to Isuzu.
Oh yeah and that IRS pre-VE Commodore.... what a joke! The EF Falcon with the live axle was much better to drive.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Brazen

The Supercharged engine was available in Holdens. I know of two people personally, one who had a Supercharged VY Berlina, and another a Stateman. Very underated engine in my opinion, great mid-range power which is hidden in the stats.

And it was completely shaded by the Barra I6, even in its most povvo form.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

And it was completely shaded by the Barra I6

would that be the wheezy and harsh barra? honestly, my EF was punchier.

[samftr]

Well er not to putt poop on your Ef but the ba ct stock ran a 15
Second pass. Which is quicker then the el ghia ran.
I've contemplated a diesel engine conversion on the fairmont purely as an experiment in economy etc however the cost of engineering and purchase of the engine would be prohibitive

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by b0son

would that be the wheezy and harsh barra? honestly, my EF was punchier.

You're showing how one eyed you really are with this post. The Barra is still smoother than any Holden 6 ever made.

Try the LS1 forums.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

You're showing how one eyed you really are

I owned one for 5 years. Sorry, but the Barra was overrated. The upgrades they made to it were great on paper, but didnt seem to materialise as much as one would have expected in the real world. Unremarkable economy, inconsistent idle, unwillingness to rev, etc etc. It really didnt feel like it was almost a decade on in tech compared to the EF.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by samftr

I've contemplated a diesel engine conversion on the fairmont purely as an experiment in economy etc however the cost of engineering and purchase of the engine would be prohibitive

If it would fit you could always put the Ford/Jaguar 4.4L Diesel into it....

If you could find a current model Range Rover at the wreckers with its engine still intact there is half a chance it would have that engine. And given the size of the RR it gets insanely good fuel economy.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by fairlaneman

The BA was also a larger car than the VY.

Barely larger. Barely noticeable in terms of interior space.

Oh, and the Falcon was available in manual, even if not many specified it that way.

I did. It was sub-par. The gearbox was slow. The driveline vibrated. The diff clunked.

TBH, I dont know why they bothered to offer a manual.

[samftr]

The cousins ba was converted to manual 5 speed then 6 speed it's alright. He's done a lot of km on it with little to no maintenance on the car I have seen it with no air box on it being held flat screaming it's head off when cold and it
Revved up well lol. Maybe you had a dud?? I've had three e series now and driven countless ones. Hands down the bf2 barra is way more refined and powerful.
Diesel options would be something 4 cyl 3 litre ranger esk or d max etc.

[Auslandau]

How the hell did this topic get on to a "Mines better than yours" ? Thought the topic was about a Diesel Falcon .........

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

How the hell did this topic get on to a "Mines better than yours" ? Thought the topic was about a Diesel Falcon .........

No idea.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

How the hell did this topic get on to a "Mines better than yours" ? Thought the topic was about a Diesel Falcon .........

Your guess is as good as mine. Sometimes I wonder if we are actually on a Ford enthusiast's forum or not...

[whales]

Originally Posted by flappist

Nearly as hard as I am laughing at you........

I apologise, it not 3 commodres to each falcon it's just over 2,
but every thing else I said was correct, wasn't holdens profit in excess of $100m and fords was about $20m this year.

I never said at any point that the holden's 1st's were better, because they wern't, all I said was, holden put a lot of new technology into their cars before falcon do and that was a few of them that i named.

I don't believe I deserved your sarcastic comments

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by b0son

I owned one for 5 years. Sorry, but the Barra was overrated. The upgrades they made to it were great on paper, but didnt seem to materialise as much as one would have expected in the real world. Unremarkable economy, inconsistent idle, unwillingness to rev, etc etc. It really didnt feel like it was almost a decade on in tech compared to the EF.

Sorry but you're really going to have be more specific about which model and what 'issue'. The only one with a noticeable inconsistent idle is with early BA's. That's just code in the ECU doing that.

Barra is damn fine engine.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Barra is damn fine engine.

100% agree. I love mine. Although it's not stock I must say it's a very rewarding motor, can't get enough of it. Even in stock form it recorded sub 15s down the quarter so anyone who thinks it ain't good isn't being a fair at all.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

100% agree. I love mine. Although it's not stock I must say it's a very rewarding motor, can't get enough of it. Even in stock form it recorded sub 15s down the quarter so anyone who thinks it ain't good isn't being a fair at all.

I love it how you don't have to move the throttle pedal much to get motoring. Low end torque and lots of it. And when paired with a good gearbox... which is a rare find in fords of yorn. It's epic.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

I love it how you don't have to move the throttle pedal much to get motoring. Low end torque and lots of it. And when paired with a good gearbox... which is a rare find in fords of yorn. It's epic.

Mines a 4sp, first gets past 100km/h. Yes, a ZF would be better, but even with the 4sp it's never found wanting of any twist at low speeds or rpm. These motors rock.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by whales

I apologise, it not 3 commodres to each falcon it's just over 2,
but every thing else I said was correct, wasn't holdens profit in excess of $100m and fords was about $20m this year.

What about Profit since the glorious VE was introduced in 2006?
I think you'll find that Holden losses are close to $500 million.
And Ford can't crow either, restructuring and economic crisis hit them too.

Let's just be happy that both manufacturers have profitability plans going forward,
Holden needs to keep both shifts at Elizabeth running strongly and Cruze is perfect for that.
Ford on the other hand is set up for one shift at Broadmeadows, their best chance is to
reignite Territory buyers with the new SZ, 6-speed auto RWD I-6 and diesel versions are
big news, combine that with EcoLPI engines coming for Falcon sedan and Ute and the
Falcon should come back to life, Ecoboost will change the market's view of Falcon's economy.

All in all, two completely different strategies with only some areas of over lap,
I personally hope that both manufacturers do well but I will be more interested in Ford.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Mines a 4sp, first gets past 100km/h. Yes, a ZF would be better, but even with the 4sp it's never found wanting of any twist at low speeds or rpm. These motors rock.

sounds like your speedo is way out, 100 in first? how far past the red line?

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

100% agree. I love mine. Although it's not stock I must say it's a very rewarding motor, can't get enough of it. Even in stock form it recorded sub 15s down the quarter so anyone who thinks it ain't good isn't being a fair at all.

why are you rating an engine by how quick you can drive your car in a quarter mile? no one cares about that with a 6 cylinder enigine. i started this thread to discuss a diesel alternative for a falcon. i know people want diesels, and none of them would care about the quarter mile time, my $1500 motorcycle, can do sub 12 quarter mile, that doesnt make it great either.

[jed]

i like the specs quoted on the diesel at the start of this thread.

if they made a diesel falcon i would buy one , until then i will stick with the standard 6

[Rodge]

On Topic. Yes the spec's of the Merc diesel look good but this is my experience with exactly the same engine in my S Class albeit in a slightly lower state of tune in 2007 :- Note this C Class diesel installation the subject of this thread is NOT the version fitted with the latest in exhaust urea injection system as fitted to the latest S350CD1 diesels' so WILL be prone to exactly the same problems I experienced.
The purpose of posting this is that all is not quite what it seems with the latest diesels and in the seach for ever greater fuel efficiency sometimes major compromises are made. Replace a $5,000 DPF in your Merc and watch all your fuel savings and more besides turn to ash. Relative simplicity, efficient cost, reasonable economy, good torque, power, durability and dependability of Ford's inline six has much going for it in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GT-E
Rodge,
This was a consern of mine as we do mainly short runs in the local area.
The dealer did say that the CRD was more suited to longer runs, so I do not know what problems I can expect in lots of short runs.
Rather than PM you, please feel free to share your knowladge as I would be very interested in your viewpoint and opinion.


Happy to help. Here's a good article to start with:-
http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/art...ction-problem/

Perhaps it might help if I share my experience as that really sums the problematic situation up pretty well. Back in early 2007 when I bought my Merc diesel the systems were really new and the problems not well understood.

Why have DPF's ? Its all but impossible to achieve Euro 4 emmsiions standards and better without them.

So what is late stage fuel injection ?As you'll see from the technical article on the diesel that's going into your new GC the injectors are highly sophisticated and can inject very fine mist diesel up to 8 times per combustion cycle. Why do this ? Diesel burns much slower than petrol, its not an explosion like petrol so they inject it slowly and in phases each combustion cycle to get a cleaner, more complete and consequently more efficent burn. A side effect is a dramatic reduction in noise vibration and harshness and it all but eliminates the old tractor rattle we're all familiar with from old tech diesel's. Late stage injection is a process whereby when the ECU gets the signal from the electronic sensor in the DPF that's its nearly full of soot, there's a late stage injection of diesel into the combustion chamber, sometimes referred too as post injection where the idea is that the unburned diesel will exit the exhaust port, travel down the exhaust and will combust inside the diesel particulate filter to burn off the soot and turn it into ash, often referred too as the regeneration process of the DPF.

Are most diesel manufacturers still using late stage fuel injection ?Unfortunatly yes notwithstanding issues and limitations with the system.

Why is it critical to use the right oil in diesels equipped with a DPF ? Most oil has a fairly high ash content which is one of the components which I understand actually assists the oil to do its job. The problem with normal ash contents is that as a certain amount of oil is burned the ash gets into the DPF and blocks it up, hence you'll find the manufacturers now understand the critical impotance of a low ash oil, e.g. Oil for the Merc needs to meet M Benz 229.51 standards.

What is a DPF ?In simple terms its a giant honeycomb filter designed to trap the soot emitted from a diesel engine.

How quickly do they get blocked without a regenerative / burnout cycle ? Surprisingly quickly. Just follow an old bus belching out soot and see how much of the philth comes out and how quickly, then figure even with a lean burn diesel car engine its emitting quite a bit, especially under hard acceleration. Reasearch i've seen tends to indicate to me they need to achieve burn out far more often than you might imagine, at least twice a week for a vehicle used lightly around the city.

So what's the problem with the regenerative burn-out cycle ?
The exhaust needs to get really hot to achieve the required temperature to achieve combustion and vehicles used primarily on short trips around the city, you know, dropping the kids at soccer, down to the cfe, off to the shopping mall and any other repetitive short trips the exhaust simply doesn't get hot enough to achieve the critical temperature required for combustion.

What happens then ?
That's when the problems really start. Imagine if you will that the little electronic sensor in your homeycomb DPF is telling your ECU the DPF is near full, the ECU repsonds by doing its late stage injection proceedure but the exhast isn't hot enough to achieve combustion of the late stage injected diesel in your exhaust, the DPF gets even more blocked, backpressure builds up in the exhaust and on and on this problem goes with your DPF becoming hopelessly blocked, backpressure builds, the late stage diesel isn't combusted and because of the backpressure when you turn your engine off from yet another short trip to the cafe, the diesel sits wet on your engiones bore or cylinder liners and dribbles down past the rings into the oil. Note the level of oil contamination that VW considered okay in that linked article 45% !!!!!!

How have some of the manufacturers reacted to this problem ?
In exhaust injection systems are the best solution but they cost a lot more money but will be required to meet Euro 6 reg's so diesel engine prices will go up. M BVenz are now using Urea injection in exhaust sytems in their latest high end cars but even in 2011 are still using late stage injection in C Class diesel's as a cost saving measure, shame on them when they allready have developed a far better system fitted to their latest bluetec diesel's.

How do I know what system the manufacturer uses in my diesel ?
Ask them !! I can't overstate the importance of getting an understanding of the system operation in any vehicle you buy. Some naufacturers are now fitting a system whereby there's a four stage warning light on the dashboard depending on how clogged the DPF is and if you keep going fopr short trips and it gets to stage 4 blocked, the vehicle will ask you to pull over and its goes through a regeneration process on the side of the road, achieves high temps by not being driven but fact idling and can take about 20-30 minutes from memory.

Why do some people have problems with their DPF and others not ? Depends on the vehicles system and how its driven. Even with a basic DPF using a simple late stage injection proceedure with a good open road trip of about 30 minutes at least once a week, (preferrably twice or more), at full open road speed, this will be enough to achieve the temp's required for DPF regneration.

Is one open road trip at say 100-110 k.p.h. for 30 minutes or more a week enough ?
That's the $64,000 question, I think not, best if there's two or more.

What happens if I simply put up with the diesel fuel oil dilution provided its not as extreme as VW suggest 45% is okay ?
Diesel fuel and oil actually mix quite well but it thins the oil down dramatically, e.g. in my case 8 litres of new Mobil 1 5W30 Oil became 9 litres of heavily diluted (about 3W20 from memory), heavily contaminated oil within 3,000 km's.
The oil's centrestoke value with be dramatically lowered more so the more diesel contaminant gets in there. Metal on metal contact is possible as the centrestoke values decline and the longevity of the engines life is unquestionably seriously affected.
Apart from the DPF blocking, fuel consumption increasing, longevity being compromised are their any other problems casued by this issue ? Sadly yes, as if that lot isn't enough. An overfull crankcase can cuase excess crankcase pressure, issues with the engines seals, and in serious cases a crankcase explosion is possible.

So what are some of the manufacturers doing in regard to overfull crankcase issues ? You will find this very difficult to believe, as did I but almost unbeleivably some of them are moving to manufacture their engines without a dipstick so you can't check the oil level yourself and see the problem, its all electronic with electronic sender units for low oil level and sensors for overfull right ? NO !!! I know that M Benz for one have taken the overfull sensor off some of their diesel engines and they are routinly draining far more contaminated oil out at service time than the crankcase's specific capacity.

Now if M Benz are doing this to save money and to avoid scarring their customers you would be very wise to ask what the other manufacturers are doing ?

Some will scoff at all the above, I have a thick skin I can take it but what I shared with you is the product of over 200 hours of reasearch, assisted by two good engineer friends one of whom is a senior licenced aircraft maintenance engineer at Air New Zealand and works on jet engines and also happens to be an A grade diesel mechanic, (Simon was especially helpful in my negotiations with M Benz on this matter.)

To those who have a diesel engine fitted with a DPF who havn't experienced the sort of problems I did, then you're driving pattern must be considerably different to mine and what is proposed by GT-E and what I am suggesting is simply this, if you keep driving vehicles like this for short trips around twon, its is highly likely you will have very serious problems like I did. You could choose to go out of your way to make a 30 minute trip on the open road each week and this might be enough, or perhaps not ?

Personally I will never buy another diesel equipped with a DPF.
Sorry havn't got the time to edit very much, hopefully it makes reasonable sense the way it came off my keyboard.
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