VFACTS Oct 2018

[prydey]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

I wonder if there is any current quantifiable ($) evidence that toyota is more reliable.

Of course there isn't, and its a myth.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

For a good number of years people will pay more for a Toyota and get less.


"Reliability reputation built in" is the only "deal".


I wonder if there is any current quantifiable ($) evidence that toyota is more reliable.

Just going further with your post, I've often wondered if a particular brands owners are more likely to stick with the scheduled servicing throughout their ownership life of that vehicle. For example how many Falcons and Commodores were maintained by the book and always cared with with the same dedication as an owner of a Toyota/Mazda/Camry/Honda?

I'd guess a general survey would list these last three brands as more reliable then a Ford or Holden however were all vehicles maintained completely by the manufacturers requirements, never neglected, service skipped. I would imagine an "older"owner of a Toyota would studiously follow the service schedule but would a 5 year old Falcon in the hands of a younger owner be maintained as carefully.

Yes I know I'm generalising but it would be interesting to measure vehicle reliability factoring in maintenance of the car by the owner.

EG.If 80% of Toyota owners serviced by the book and 60% of Ford owners does it have a bearing on vehicle reliability? In my own case the most trouble I've had with a vehicle was my T5 Transporter, most fixed under warranty and some when over 260,000km so I couldn't really expect too much. My BA, FG, SZ, SZII and 2nd SZII have only ever had routine servicing.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

For a good number of years people will pay more for a Toyota and get less.


"Reliability reputation built in" is the only "deal".


I wonder if there is any current quantifiable ($) evidence that toyota is more reliable.

Doesn't matter whether there is or not, customers flock back for a reason and because of that Toyota doesnt need to slash the price or offer incentives, they sell because people want them.
Having said that, even the humble Camry which like Commodore has been a segment leader for a loooong time, it too has struggled to regain market share post local production.
If Toyota, who sell in the order of 3 to 1 against its former local opposition, cant make Australian's flock to its imported Camry which is basically the same car underneath, what makes people think Holden have made some fundamental error in facing the same challenges with an imported Commodore which is so different to its predecessor.
Perhaps its just a case of Aussies arent over the end of local versions of those cars yet...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Doesn't matter whether there is or not, customers flock back for a reason and because of that Toyota doesnt need to slash the price or offer incentives, they sell because people want them.
Having said that, even the humble Camry which like Commodore has been a segment leader for a loooong time, it too has struggled to regain market share post local production.
If Toyota, who sell in the order of 3 to 1 against its former local opposition, cant make Australian's flock to its imported Camry which is basically the same car underneath, what makes people think Holden have made some fundamental error in facing the same challenges with an imported Commodore which is so different to its predecessor.
Perhaps its just a case of Aussies arent over the end of local versions of those cars yet...

if you dilute Toyota's range of cars to be more like other manufacturers, they wouldn't be all that different in sales numbers. They sell the most cars, but they also have the biggest model range.

if you break it down, hilux only just outsells ranger, and mostly only on 4x2 sales. corolla is often beaten by mazda3 and sometimes even i30. camry and prado sell in decent numbers compared to their opposition though.

most of Toyota's sales is just from accumulation through many models.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

If Toyota, who sell in the order of 3 to 1 against its former local opposition, cant make Australian's flock to its imported Camry which is basically the same car underneath, what makes people think Holden have made some fundamental error in facing the same challenges with an imported Commodore which is so different to its predecessor.
Perhaps its just a case of Aussies arent over the end of local versions of those cars yet...

While the collateral damage at Toyota is limited to fewer Camry sales, the loss of the local Commodore has affected sales across the range...

The knock on effect of ZB Commodore is to drag down sales of the rest of the range,
something that's been shored up with lots of discounting and registering zero klm demos.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you dilute Toyota's range of cars to be more like other manufacturers, they wouldn't be all that different in sales numbers. They sell the most cars, but they also have the biggest model range.

if you break it down, hilux only just outsells ranger, and mostly only on 4x2 sales. corolla is often beaten by mazda3 and sometimes even i30. camry and prado sell in decent numbers compared to their opposition though.

most of Toyota's sales is just from accumulation through many models.

And?

Im not sure why having a broader range of models is considered an unfair advantage, no one said Ford cant compete in those areas, they choose not to or they did and have pulled out because they cant compete with what they have to offer.
Surely you're not suggesting that Toyota arent making money due to having so many products on offer, their products are priced at a premium to their relevant opposition.

Hilux convincingly accounted for Ranger this month in both 4x4 and 4x2, Mazda3 does not 'often' beat Corolla without incentives and the same with i30, infact, im not sure you could say that with a straight face as neither of them has topped the Corolla since January and when they do its only for a month here and there and by a small margin compared to when Corolla occupies the no1 spot.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

While the collateral damage at Toyota is limited to fewer Camry sales, the loss of the local Commodore has affected sales across the range...

The knock on effect of ZB Commodore is to drag down sales of the rest of the range,
something that's been shored up with lots of discounting and registering zero klm demos.

Actually i'd say the knock on effect of losing the locally manufactured Commodore has dragged down sales of the rest.
VF and its predecessors brought customers to Holden's door, ZB hasnt turned them away, they just aren't turning up anymore because they haven't accepted the import as a replacement.

[jpd80]

Year to date sales of 4x4 Hilux and Ranger are neck and neck
Hilux.........31,898
Ranger......30,863

A thousand sales lead is still a win to Toyota but the 4x2 sales
show Hilux's added strength with low end tradie sales,
Ford discontinuing the 2.5 petrol a few years back..

Hilux.........11,265
Ranger........4,447

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Doesn't matter whether there is or not, customers flock back for a reason and because of that Toyota doesnt need to slash the price or offer incentives, they sell because people want them.
Having said that, even the humble Camry which like Commodore has been a segment leader for a loooong time, it too has struggled to regain market share post local production.
If Toyota, who sell in the order of 3 to 1 against its former local opposition, cant make Australian's flock to its imported Camry which is basically the same car underneath, what makes people think Holden have made some fundamental error in facing the same challenges with an imported Commodore which is so different to its predecessor.
Perhaps its just a case of Aussies arent over the end of local versions of those cars yet...

You are failing to mention the large number of fleet Commodores and Camrys they both sold to government buy Australia only fleet policies. This is especially true of the Camry Hybrid which government fleets bought a lot of.

On top of that Holden get the double whammy of killing off the enthusiasts buying SS's and HSV's.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Actually i'd say the knock on effect of losing the locally manufactured Commodore has dragged down sales of the rest.
VF and its predecessors brought customers to Holden's door, ZB hasnt turned them away, they just aren't turning up anymore because they haven't accepted the import as a replacement.

Either way, people have lost their reason to visit a Holden dealership unless they
see big discounts that are just too hard to ignore. While that's an effective tool
to lower stock levels, it cheapens the brand and absolutely kills resale values.

Toyota still does deals (that's why they are called dealers), it's just that discounts are not
as big or well known (dealer Vs National), there's always some bargains to be had for buyers
who are prepared to seek them out.

One of the secrets with Toyota is the whole buying experience, about ten
years ago I let my wife go through it, she'd never bought a new vehicle
on her own. We saw a great deal on base RAV4 with really good finance
so i let her do the whole lot and signed afterwards. I gotta say the whole
process was very painless and down right friendly....

in contrast, only one of the three Ford dealerships I bough new cars from
really came up to that mark...one of them sent me off with the fuel light on.
the same one that told my wife to come back with hubby and we'll do a deal.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Either way, people have lost their reason to visit a Holden dealership unless they
see big discounts that are just too hard to ignore. While that's an effective tool
to lower stock levels, it cheapens the brand and absolutely kills resale values.

Toyota still does deals (that's why they are called dealers), it's just that discounts are not
as big or well known (dealer Vs National), there's always some bargains to be had for buyers
who are prepared to seek them out.

One of the secretswith Toyota is the whole buying experience, about ten
years ago I let my wife go through it, she'd never bought a new vehicle
on her own. We saw a great deal on base RAV4 with really good finance
so i let her do the whole lot and signed afterwards. I gotta say the whole
process was very painless and down right friendly....

Fella i worked for the biggest Toyota dealers in SA, theres nothing you can tell me about how they do business and i can assure you apart from a few accessories and a tank of petrol, they rarely negotiate as they dont need to, they sell in sufficient numbers on badge loyalty alone.
Another indicator of how a brand is going at retail level is in staff retention.
Sales people rarely left unless pushed, would you walk away from a cash cow...
When Toyota offer 'deals' its to clear superceeded stock, not when a facelift has just arrived...

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

You are failing to mention the large number of fleet Commodores and Camrys they both sold to government buy Australia only fleet policies. This is especially true of the Camry Hybrid which government fleets bought a lot of..

They're still buying them, i see more blue plated Toyotas than any other car on the road, i drive for a job.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Fella i worked for the biggest Toyota dealers in SA, theres nothing you can tell me about how they do business and i can assure you apart from a few accessories and a tank of petrol, they rarely negotiate as they dont need to, they sell in sufficient numbers on badge loyalty alone.

There are discounts on the East Coast, not big ones but still, Toyota still likes to shift tin in major outlets.
Maybe your area is feeling a bit more of a slow down due to what's happening there..

and the few accessories, tank of fuel you mentioned is what I'm alluding to as a "discount"
sorry of I didn't make that clear, sometimes that's all buyers want...

Another indicator of how a brand is going at retail level is in staff retention.
Sales people rarely left unless pushed, would you walk away from a cash cow...
When Toyota offer 'deals' its to clear superceeded stock, not when a facelift has just arrived...

and as we've seen, $2,600 spread over several years on Ford cars isn't really that much...
Especially when it's a limited time and models

[au2000]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Year to date sales of 4x4 Hilux and Ranger are neck and neck
Hilux.........31,898
Ranger......30,863

A thousand sales lead is still a win to Toyota but the 4x2 sales
show Hilux's added strength with low end tradie sales,
Ford discontinuing the 2.5 petrol a few years back..

Hilux.........11,265
Ranger........4,447

IMO I think these are telling numbers with ford's idea of chasing higher profit models,
Let's say ford's profit margin is higher than Toyota on their hilux range.
Yes ford has made it's profit on it's twin cab range, but you can't ignore the importance of the hilux povo pack numbers either, a 6 thousand odd difference is big and let's be fair here, small businesses with a range of staff are generally looking at the povo packs for their staff not up spec versions.

[naddis01]

Are we trying to suggest Toyota don't discount? A quick look on the Toyota website and the first vehicle I see is a Hilux SR5 advertised for $52990 driveaway. Isn't the RRP for them 54 or 55 plus on roads?

All brands discount for one reason or another.

[jpd80]

Well here you go,

Toyota Hilux SR5 4x4 Crew Cab Ute $58,837 drive away

PX3 Ranger XLT 4x4 Crew Cab Ute $60,485 drive away

Not much difference but probably enough that Ford could
swallow $2600 and give buyers 5 years of free servicing.

And yes naddis01, the 4x2 Ranger XLT Crew cab is $54,614 Drive Away....

Gotta look at the whole deal, I'm sure Toyota watches Ford and keeps pricing keen.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And yes naddis01, the 4x2 Ranger XLT Crew cab is $54,614 Drive Away....

We also shouldn't assume 4x2 mean povo pack as well.

[FTE217]

Just to jump in for not that I care who sells more and what model in general but Toyota are a brilliant company machine arn't they in the big picture.
I feel if they wanted to they could open the gap easily in 4x4HiluxSR5 vs Wildtrak for eg but why bother dropping margin as long as they are 1 by a measly 1000 units or not.
Camrys here in Sydney have now been taken in by cabbies full on, the best replacement they can find to Falcon.
Privately Camry has lost out huge to the small/mid SUV now, most of those leather patched cardigan owners gone for those now but would they care ? its just shifted sand.
Corollas still kick **** in sales, jsut that there is more decent opposition.
I just saw the new model 4door sedan for next year here, looked pretty good.
Bent 8 may add more being his background was working for the company but like most OE's quality has changed for the worst but not to the point of "I'm not going to buy that" for starters but I see a couple of "reliability myth" mentions.
Sorry the reliability is still pretty good.
I've had a 4x4SR5 diesel for quite some time, 150thou hard k's on off road, NOT 1 thing wrong with it but usual maintenance servicing thankyou very much and I know countless people with same experience who like me have other brands in their ownership that have had far more issues than running costs.
They are boring as bat **** cars butbutbut its hassle free for me.

[BENT_8]

Another thing to consider is the % of sales of 4x4 utes by both brands, Toyota's Hilux, no1 in sales is a mere 20% of its total sales per month, Fords Ranger at no2 is in the vacinity of 65% of its total monthly sales, if your giving away $2600 on lets say even 35% of your total numbers, and i would say that was conservative, its got to be hurting your bottom line more than a few sets of mats and a tank of petrol.
Lets do the figures, 35% of 5.5k sales is 1.925k units, multiply that by $2600, thats $5m, then multiply it by 2 months...$10m

Every brand offers driveaway pricing, thats a given, im talking about additional large scale incentives like $2600 worth of servicing, where servicing is one of if not the biggest money spinner for shop front outlets.
Its what keeps the doors open in many cases.

When you consider one brand is into utes by 65% of its volume and the other only 20%, not much has to change for dire outcomes for one of those examples.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by naddis01

We also shouldn't assume 4x2 mean povo pack as well.

Entry point of Hilux 4x2 is $23,990 for petrol and ~$27K for the diesel
Entry point for Ranger diesel is just over $31K

pretty obvious that Toyota is covering a bigger 4x2 sales foot print with prices Ford doesn't match.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Entry point of Hilux 3x3 is $23,990 for petrol and ~$27K for the diesel
Entry point for Ranger diesel is just over $31K

pretty obvious that Toyota is covering a bigger 4x2 sales foot print with prices Ford doesn't match.

I realise that there are entry level 4x2s but there are also high level models.

What I was getting at was we shouldn't assume that 4x2 means low profit sales which seems to be the assumption in this thread. I'm sure there is still plenty of meat on a 4x2 XLT or Toyota's equivalent.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Another thing to consider is the % of sales of 4x4 utes by both brands, Toyota's Hilux, no1 in sales is a mere 20% of its total sales per month, Fords Ranger at no2 is in the vacinity of 65% of its total monthly sales, if your giving away $2600 on lets say even 35% of your total numbers, and i would say that was conservative, its got to be hurting your bottom line more than a few sets of mats and a tank of petrol.
Lets do the figures, 35% of 5.5k sales is 1.925k units, multiply that by $2600, thats $5m, then multiply it by 2 months...$10m

Every brand offers driveaway pricing, thats a given, im talking about additional large scale incentives like $2600 worth of servicing, where servicing is one of if not the biggest money spinner for shop front outlets.
Its what keeps the doors open in many cases.

When you consider one brand is into utes by 65% of its volume and the other only 20%, not much has to change for dire outcomes for one of those examples.

An SR5 at $52990 driveaway would have more than $2600 discount wouldn't it?

[jpd80]

Especially when the corresponding Ranger XLT with 5 year's free servicing is around $1,600 dearer...
Bent 8's logic doesn't account for differences in price between Hilux and Ranger..

Yes, Ford is giving up some money but they get a whole lot more in return.
consider the plight of the Colorado LT 4x4 crew cab - $41,990 drive away.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Especially when the corresponding Ranger XLT with 5 year's free servicing is around $1,600 dearer...
Bent 8's logic doesn't account for differences in price between Hilux and Ranger..

You're not factoring in the costs associated with having the two in stock, Ford may be getting more per unit for their item, but it may be costing them more to bring it to market in the first place.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by naddis01

An SR5 at $52990 driveaway would have more than $2600 discount wouldn't it?

Maybe, but whats the markup in the first place.

The Hilux is also over 12 months since refresh.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Especially when the corresponding Ranger XLT with 5 year's free servicing is around $1,600 dearer...
Bent 8's logic doesn't account for differences in price between Hilux and Ranger..

Yes, Ford is giving up some money but they get a whole lot more in return.
consider the plight of the Colorado LT 4x4 crew cab - $41,990 drive away.

curious, where is the lot more in return ?

[4stanger]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

The Hilux is also over 12 months since refresh.

Incorrect.
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...revealed-70533
Toyota released a new spec Hilux just after July this year, a bloke I now really really well works at a Toyota dealer, they are always very very busy

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by 4stanger

Incorrect.
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...revealed-70533
Toyota released a new spec Hilux just after July this year, a bloke I now really really well works at a Toyota dealer, they are always very very busy

Thats only basic cosmetic upgrades on high spec versions to bring them in line with the newly released Rugged range, and a trans edit.
The entire range hasnt been refreshed since 2017 and further down in the article it admits it still lags behind Ranger for freshness and tech.

Its not quite on the same scale as a whole new engine and transmission, but if it makes you feel better you can pretend it is.

Hilux is still selling more and without giving away 5yrs of service though...

[GasoLane]

Y'know I'm pretty sure that there was more makes than just Toyota and Ford in that report.

So can we stop with the Peeing contest gentleman please.

[MITCHAY]

It took ages to see one ZB but I have seen a few now. Decent looking car, but not a Commodore.