Ford commits to V8 Future - Page 5

Road_Warrior · 16-09-2009, 11:00 AM

They don't offer it in the Berlina anymore either...

**Polyal** · 16-09-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

When Ford offered every permutation and combination with the V8 nobody bought them, i don't think its lack of range that's hurt V8 sales...

Wasn't talking V8 sales on their own, but falcon in general. I4T will aim for fleets et al, I6 for family who might need a little more poke (towing etc, dont know what the 4T will be like for that), and then top it off with I6T and V8 engines that satisfy both groups of performance heros.

The V8 market comparatively is not huge, but important enough that they need to get it right.

More sales = more $$ = more R&D and the cycle continues.

Hard to find anything negative about that.

4Vman · 16-09-2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Wasn't talking V8 sales on their own, but falcon in general. I4T will aim for fleets et al, I6 for family who might need a little more poke (towing etc, dont know what the 4T will be like for that), and then top it off with I6T and V8 engines that satisfy both groups of performance heros.

The V8 market comparatively is not huge, but important enough that they need to get it right.

More sales = more $$ = more R&D and the cycle continues.

Hard to find anything negative about that.

I agree, the mix will have many benefits however that wasn't the meaning behind my post.
People claim Ford don't offer enough model choice with the V8, and that this has contributed to its sales demise... history shows when they did nobody supported them with their wallets...

**Polyal** · 16-09-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I agree, the mix will have many benefits however that wasn't the meaning behind my post.
People claim Ford don't offer enough model choice with the V8, and that this has contributed to its sales demise... history shows when they did nobody supported them with their wallets...

Ah... you referring to 3v and 4v during B series? As thats the only time I can recollect there being much of an option. The 3v while nice, was a waste and I think/hope Ford have learnt from that. Much easier to just tune up and down I would have thought.

T3ts50 · 16-09-2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Ah... you referring to 3v and 4v during B series? As thats the only time I can recollect there being much of an option. The 3v while nice, was a waste and I think/hope Ford have learnt from that. Much easier to just tune up and down I would have thought.

As I recall, a V8 was optional in pretty much everything from EB to AU3. The 8's were popular options in fairlanes and LTD's but that was pretty much it.

**Polyal** · 16-09-2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3ts50

As I recall, a V8 was optional in pretty much everything from EB to AU3. The 8's were popular options in fairlanes and LTD's but that was pretty much it.

True, but basically they were the same engine with tweaks, ie: xr8 and then the GT.

With the B series you had the 3v, 4v XR8 and 4v GT; when it would have been better to have just the 4v. I guess the marketing dep and costs associated with having a bulge on every model wouldn't have helped. Imagine a G220 with a bulge, would look cool but not quite the image Ford would be after.

AU was the same, windsor throughout and T series got tweaked.

Ride · 16-09-2009, 03:14 PM

The reason why the 5L wasn't a popular option in the AU Fairmonts/Fairlanes was that it was only 3kw more than the VCT I6, EL Fairmont/Fairlane V8 was only 3-5kw more than the Tickford I6 too, no brainer there

Powdered Toast Man · 16-09-2009, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

True, but basically they were the same engine with tweaks, ie: xr8 and then the GT.

With the B series you had the 3v, 4v XR8 and 4v GT; when it would have been better to have just the 4v. I guess the marketing dep and costs associated with having a bulge on every model wouldn't have helped. Imagine a G220 with a bulge, would look cool but not quite the image Ford would be after.

AU was the same, windsor throughout and T series got tweaked.

You'd find that the character of the 3V suited the application (relaxed luxury)much more than either high revving 4V and thats why Ford went with the 3V in the Fairlane range and as the optional V8. I doubt the bonnet bulge had much to do with it.

And really the 3V, and both 4Vs were also the same engines just with "tweeks". Sure the tweeks are substantial with different heads and internals in the case of the Boss 290, but so were the windsors. The 220kw XR8 had different heads, cam, intake and exhaust than the 175kw base AUII V8.

Not disagreeing with your thinking though, just pointing out the facts.

Road_Warrior · 16-09-2009, 04:19 PM

I reckon the 3V copped a raw deal in the BA/BF. No one bought it but its a really capable engine that deserved better.

**Elks** · 16-09-2009, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I reckon the 3V copped a raw deal in the BA/BF. No one bought it but its a really capable engine that deserved better.

I bought one...in an XL ute.

Was a lovely torquey engine with VCT. excellent on fuel, 12.5 city and 9.5 country. But agree the 2 v8 strategy was wrong. Despite its good points I always got 'only a 220' comments. I was going to buy an I6.

4Vman · 16-09-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elks

I bought one...in an XL ute.

Was a lovely torquey engine with VCT. excellent on fuel, 12.5 city and 9.5 country. But agree the 2 v8 strategy was wrong. Despite its good points I always got 'only a 220' comments. I was going to buy an I6.

Horses for courses..
You could have bought an XR8 if you wanted more power you realise.... the whole reason for offering more up the price tree is to get you to spend more... and the fact that non performance applications such as base vehicles don't require a "performance" V8 option... The 220 3V was more than adequate for the vehicles it was optioned with.

Bossxr8 · 16-09-2009, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

A motor Designed for FI applications will not have the same configurations as a NA motor. Most likely the FI head will be alot different to the NA head, For example FI requires a lower compression ratio where as NA works much better with a high CR, also FI requires stronger valve springs etc. A motor designed for FI applications with not work well as NA and vice-versa, parts cannot be simply interchanged.
So if ford Designs a FI head for DI they cannot simply throw that head on the NA config.

Compression ratio is changed through the pistons, not the chambers.

The XR6 Turbo uses the exact same head casting as the standard 6, just with better valves and valve springs, and lower compression is achieved through dished pistons.

phillyc · 16-09-2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Holden dont offer the V8 in the Omega. Only SS,SSV and Calais. So Ford is only missing out on the G8E.

Oh and an XR8E / XR8 Titanium to counter the SSV. That would come with the technology / safety pack as standard. Rather than optioning up the XR8 and not getting the money back at resale time.

In summary, Ford should have XR8, G8E & XR8E.

Swordsman88 · 16-09-2009, 10:06 PM

The important factor for me, more so even then the fact Ford has confirmed that there will be Ford badged V8s (i.e. not just FPV), is the ways in which this decision will be implemented.

By this i am referring to the models it will be offered in (will there be a G8E, optional V8 in utes/base models, Sprint returning??) and the positioning/marketing perspective. Since FG (and in reality during the BA-BF too since the 3v V8 was unfairly ignored), the V8 situation has really been for XR8 only. Particulary the XR8 ute as discussed earlier. Sales (% wise) have continued to shrink and the 'public percerpetion' is that Ford V8s were either substandard, or irrelevent, or both. Of course in reality this is pretty much bull, as many on here are at pains to point out.

Nonetheless, the XR6T, since BF in particular, has had a much bigger following as has been discussed ad infinitum on here. HOWEVER, if the coyote XR8 (crate engine or FPV built) is not only the match on paper of the current 5.4 290, but is much better (ouf of the box at least) in driveability, efficiency, NVH, and that all important performance, how will the performance Ford buyer respond? And moreover, how will Ford respond? I don't think Ford for one is sure what this means, hence the decision to offer Coyote in FG Mk2 at least, to see how things go.

I think in the next few years we will start to see if a high tech, truly modern, performance (not truck) V8 in an affordable 'family sedan' really does have legs as a sales premise. Will the 'V8 are old tech' perception keep it down, or will a truly competitive V8 lead to an increase in sales at the expense of the I6T and dare i say, the frankly 'old tech' GMH product?

Interesting times ahead methinks.

Falc'man · 16-09-2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

HOWEVER, if the coyote XR8 (crate engine or FPV built) is not only the match on paper of the current 5.4 290, but is much better (ouf of the box at least) in driveability, efficiency, NVH, and that all important performance, how will the performance Ford buyer respond? And moreover, how will Ford respond? I don't think Ford for one is sure what this means, hence the decision to offer Coyote in FG Mk2 at least, to see how things go.

I wonder how much of a song and dance Ford will make of this new offering.

I'm not confident they'll sufficiently educate the demographic for this (XR8, and potentially G series) product. Unfortunately, the greatest hurdle - as pointed out by GT69 earlier - is the hard place the media finds themselves between the turbo and the SS, for them to give it a fair rating.

**Polyal** · 16-09-2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I think in the next few years we will start to see if a high tech, truly modern, performance (not truck) V8 in an affordable 'family sedan' really does have legs as a sales premise. Will the 'V8 are old tech' perception keep it down, or will a truly competitive V8 lead to an increase in sales at the expense of the I6T and dare i say, the frankly 'old tech' GMH product?

Interesting times ahead methinks.

hmm deja vu.

I think that its win win. You will have your V8 crowd who will always buy V8's almost regardless of output/performance etc. In the middle you will have your swingers, grass is always greener type. This category would include those from other makes. Then you will have your now I6T fans who either love the engine for what it is, or cant justify the V8 for whatever reason.

At the end of the day if the engines are amortized throughout the FPV and Ford range then eveybody is a winner.

We know the scratch matches that happen now over the engine debate, this is going to be a busy place once the famed coyote comes along. Cant wait!

chevypower · 01-10-2009, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPFS1

Sure it shares the technologies, but that's about as far as it goes. The block and heads will be unique and the First generation N/A Coyote will not be direct injection, and I don't expect ANY direct injection application on N/A versions.

Looks like you were right on this one mate.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/09...ford-f150.html

"Unlike the 3.5-liter EcoBoost V-6 that’s scheduled to arrive in late 2010 for the F-150, the 5.0-liter Coyote V-8 won’t use direct injection or turbocharging."

**Luke Plaizier** · 01-10-2009, 12:57 PM

The Road Runner can outrun the Coyote.....

Lukeyson

XR Martin · 01-10-2009, 01:18 PM

Pretty sure the buying public doesnt care what perceived 'tech' a local V8 may have, its the performance they are more interested in. Holdens V8s are at an all time sales high, Ford is probably at a fairly low point.

T3ts50 · 01-10-2009, 01:33 PM

Carsales have just posted an apparent GT-HO that was spied in Melbourne. Could be a test mule for any new SC V8 from FPV, or it could just be someones hotted up XR8. Im betting on the latter as there is no disguise whatsoever.

http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2009...he-prowl-16870

4Vman · 01-10-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3ts50

Carsales have just posted an apparent GT-HO that was spied in Melbourne. Could be a test mule for any new SC V8 from FPV, or it could just be someones hotted up XR8. Im betting on the latter as there is no disguise whatsoever.

http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2009...he-prowl-16870

More spin... they're just GT mules....

R-Design · 01-10-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3ts50

Carsales have just posted an apparent GT-HO that was spied in Melbourne. Could be a test mule for any new SC V8 from FPV, or it could just be someones hotted up XR8. Im betting on the latter as there is no disguise whatsoever.

http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2009...he-prowl-16870

Even if it was a Ford development vehicle, it doesn't mean it's a GT-HO. The talk is the XR8 may get a Supercharged Coyote also. The plot thickens...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

More spin... they're just GT mules....

Or that also.

4Vman · 01-10-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boss315

Even if it was a Ford development vehicle, it doesn't mean it's a GT-HO. The talk is the XR8 may get a Supercharged Coyote also. The plot thickens...

Agreed... they had to spin the most un-plausible option didnt they... when the MOST obvious and logical is the GT engine...

R-Design · 01-10-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Agreed... they had to spin the most un-plausable option didnt they... when the MOST obvious is the GT engine...

I've got to admit, I'm more excited by the prospect of a supercharged XR8 than a GT-HO. It means Ford/FPV must have something up there sleeve.

4Vman · 01-10-2009, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boss315

I've got to admit, I'm more excited by the prospect of a supercharged XR8, than a GT-HO. It means Ford/FPV must have something up there sleeve.

I think you'll find the XR8 will be NA, the FPV GT varients are most likely to be SC.
They dont need the GT bodykit to test the engine, the XR8 will do.
As we all know now GT-HO isnt going to happen, GT-H is as close as its going to get.

R-Design · 01-10-2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

They dont need the GT bodykit to test the engine, the XR8 will do.

I guess it's possible, but the previous mule (as seen on CarAdvice) was a GT, and why'd you test a GT on 18 inch wheels (unless that photo was purely illustrative)?

4Vman · 01-10-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boss315

I guess it's possible, but the previous mule (as seen on CarAdvice) was a GT, and why'd you test a GT on 18 inch wheels (unless that photo was purely illustrative)?

Cost.... convenience.. stealth..

**Luke Plaizier** · 01-10-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Cost.... convenience.. stealth..

.....or because you're really validating an XR8 and you want to throw off the scent by actually testing in an XR8.....

Lukeyson

Bossxr8 · 02-10-2009, 11:30 PM

The XR8 in the pic has XFG number plates. All Fords press FG's had XFG plates, so this car is very likely one of the press vehicles.

File photo from a previous test?

Falc'man · 02-10-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

They dont need the GT bodykit to test the engine, the XR8 will do..

The massive intercooler(s) needs to breath.

Boss315 is right, the car bra on the GT in the caradvice spy shots was covering the new front bar's extra large air ducts...