Workers to vote against pay cut to save Holden

[Franco Cozzo]

Sorry workers, you need to take pay cuts for us to survive, don't mind about our sponsoring of V8 Supercars, AFL/Rugby or us up here in management.

[Bossxr8]

It's ok anyway, the government is apparently close to giving them another $200 million. It won't actually help them sell any more cars but it will make them appear to be making money once you add the government cash to their red pen in their profit/loss records.

What is this money going to achieve when sales will continue to tank for Holden? Its just throwing cash at a problem that cash can't fix. It just covers over the cracks.

[blueoval]

This cash injection will just line the pockets of the ceo, directors once the s*** hits the fan. Just like the other govco cash injections

[Cuyper]

It only takes 12-14 man hours to assemble a car. Even at $30 an hour that's only $420. If someone in Asia can do it for $40 total well the car is only going to cost an extra $380. It's more likely the cost of localy made parts that are the killer

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Cuyper

It only takes 12-14 man hours to assemble a car. Even at $30 an hour that's only $420. If someone in Asia can do it for $40 total well the car is only going to cost an extra $380. It's more likely the cost of localy made parts that are the killer

Thats basic mathematics gone horribly wrong. Holden are going to be making 335 cars a day with 1750 workers in general assembly. Thats 5.22 workers per day, to get a car out the door. Now 5.22 workers at circa $300 (yes including all other costs) per day, comes to $1566 per car. Now considering Holden dont actually make a great deal of the car (the rest comes from tier one suppliers), then your adding a few multiples to the $1566 per car, on supplier labour, and also general support staff / engineering etc inside Holden.

Lower wages and a production rate of 400,000 a year would easily give an asian manufacturer a $4000 advantage on a similar car manufactured in Australia.

[ratter]

I think some people walk around with horse blinkers on

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Cuyper

It only takes 12-14 man hours to assemble a car. Even at $30 an hour that's only $420. If someone in Asia can do it for $40 total well the car is only going to cost an extra $380. It's more likely the cost of localy made parts that are the killer

If only 1/2 the staff worked in the plant:
Cars per month=(38/3)*(2100/2)*4.33
=57589

Holden sold 4522 units in June.

[The FOMOCO]

Holdens are leaving Aust anyway its not will they its when . Mitsubishi did a very similar thing bled the state then left .As iff GMC cant afford to keep the plant running unless they screw the employees first what a joke. Then do a runner Shame Shame Shame GMH

[Gobes32]

Has it crossed anyones mind that maybe we all need to be on 20k a year to compete with overseas nations? Maybe we are all overpaid? Doctors, dentists and lawyers all earn less than 20k Per Annum in places like India where there is a glut of professionals. If a factory job can be outsourced because wages are too high then how can my dentist charge $120 for a 15 min checkup when an Indian dentist will do it for $20. If mine and your job can be outsourced, then why are the government restricting the amount of doctors and dentists allowed into Australia when it is clear there is a shortage? We all know why,, it would drive down the wages in specialist fields...........

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Has it crossed anyones mind that maybe we all need to be on 20k a year to compete with overseas nations? Maybe we are all overpaid? Doctors, dentists and lawyers all earn less than 20k Per Annum in places like India where there is a glut of professionals. If a factory job can be outsourced because wages are too high then how can my dentist charge $120 for a 15 min checkup when an Indian dentist will do it for $20. If mine and your job can be outsourced, then why are the government restricting the amount of doctors and dentists allowed into Australia when it is clear there is a shortage? We all know why,, it would drive down the wages in specialist fields...........

I KNOW THIS IS OFF TOPIC . BUT IN INDIA THERE ARE MANY MANY MILLION AIRS AND BILLION AIRS . the wealthy are a minority and there is still many many . there would be close to enough millionaires over there to buy out australia
the system is heading for 99% poor and 1% extreme .
never forget the truness of the matter .

so i say again . its not wages that will send holden broke . it's greed ratio factor of wealth globally .

[fte50]

A very similar wealth/poverty model to the US, the exception being fries vs curry.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Cuyper

It only takes 12-14 man hours to assemble a car. Even at $30 an hour that's only $420. If someone in Asia can do it for $40 total well the car is only going to cost an extra $380. It's more likely the cost of localy made parts that are the killer

Volume is the killer. They need to make more vehicles in the plants. Lots of places have higher labour costs than Australia and they do fine making cars (Japan, UK, Germany, France etc). We just need to build economies of scale - its what killed Ford.


The Government needs policies to encourage volume. Rebates on Australian made cars, FBT exemptions etc.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Has it crossed anyones mind that maybe we all need to be on 20k a year to compete with overseas nations? Maybe we are all overpaid? Doctors, dentists and lawyers all earn less than 20k Per Annum in places like India where there is a glut of professionals. If a factory job can be outsourced because wages are too high then how can my dentist charge $120 for a 15 min checkup when an Indian dentist will do it for $20. If mine and your job can be outsourced, then why are the government restricting the amount of doctors and dentists allowed into Australia when it is clear there is a shortage? We all know why,, it would drive down the wages in specialist fields...........

Becoming a specialist within the medical field is not an easy task. it requires many many years of study and exams and not to mention the cost of that education. Many medical professionals have immense educational debts that would make a Falcon GT look cheap.
The restriction of medical professionals is also because the standard from overseas does not meet our high standards; personally i much prefer that.
No I am not in the medical field, unfortunately I lacked the talent early on.

The cost of living, working, education, everything here is far too expensive which drives up the salaries. Then you have people that look at professionals such as medical staff and think why should they earn so much money and why they can't have the same. What they don't realise is the sacrifices many of these professionals had to make to get to where they are. Too many people would baulk at the work required.

[ratter]

taking nothing away from medical people, but there are plenty of jobs which require constant retraining on an ongoing basis to remain able to keep up with what is going on.

IMHO doctors although widely praised are worshipped way too much, many of them are just doing a job like lots of other people out there, there are good and bad in all areas of employment

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by ratter

taking nothing away from medical people, but there are plenty of jobs which require constant retraining on an ongoing basis to remain able to keep up with what is going on.

IMHO doctors although widely praised are worshipped way too much, many of them are just doing a job like lots of other people out there, there are good and bad in all areas of employment

Mate you've no idea how much work goes into becoming a medical professional. It literally takes decades of work and comes with huge personal and professional responsibility, sometimes even life or death decision making. That's what sets medicos apart from other professions. Doctors deserve every penny they make. If it's just a job, why don't you go study medicine?

[TC200six]

Originally Posted by ratter

IMHO doctors although widely praised are worshipped way too much, many of them are just doing a job like lots of other people out there, there are good and bad in all areas of employment

Depends on what kind of doctor you're talking about. If you meant a surgical specialised doctor, they deserve every penny they make like Ford The Win said.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

Mate you've no idea how much work goes into becoming a medical professional. It literally takes decades of work and comes with huge personal and professional responsibility, sometimes even life or death decision making. That's what sets medicos apart from other professions. Doctors deserve every penny they make. If it's just a job, why don't you go study medicine?

if you think so

[GQ_Smooth]

My cousin is in his 3 year of placement in a Hospital after studying Medicine, so far has accumulated $280,000 hex debt, he's 28. Will be in his late 30's before he breaks even then he can enjoy the wealth.

The stress and sacrifice he had to go through 98% of the population wouldn't be able to go through.

Indian doctors are entitled to 20K if the average salary in India is 5K. That means doctors here should be on $260K (sounds about right).

[ratter]

Originally Posted by TC200six

Depends on what kind of doctor you're talking about. If you meant a surgical specialised doctor, they deserve every penny they make like Ford The Win said.

agree that some do, many don't, again like all workers

[BENT_8]

Is it really that hard to understand, the government would rather pay Holden to employ 1700 workers paying tax and contributing to the local economy than pay 2100 people the dole.

Please, understand this...

It might be all rosy in your lives, your job may be stable and life will go on.
Sure, post up your opinions and disgust at Holden bleeding the state dry, but consider all the facts.

GMH produce vehicles in one of the poorest demographics of the entire country.
Holdens is the life blood of Elizabeth.
To sack 2100 people would be devastating to SA.
There are not 2100 job vacancies for these people, the majority will be long term unemployed due to skills or age.

Consider this.

2100 people are laid off, 400 find work, that leaves 1700 unemployed.

When their redundancy runs out, they will wander down to centrelink and it will go like this.

1700 x $300p/w = $510,000.

$510,000 x 52 = $26,520,000.00p/yr

Now consider the lost taxes.

1700 x $300p/w = $510,000p/w

$510,000 x 52 = $26,520,000.00p/yr

Now, obviously the tax aspect must factor in, returns etc. but you get the picture.

It would in effect, be a $50mil per year hit to the states budget.

All of which doesn't include the support industry calculations.

The above figures will vary, but not by much.

Now, how bad are Holden.

[GQ_Smooth]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Is it really that hard to understand, the government would rather pay Holden to employ 1700 workers paying tax and contributing to the local economy than pay 2100 people the dole.

Please, understand this...

It might be all rosy in your lives, your job may be stable and life will go on.
Sure, post up your opinions and disgust at Holden bleeding the state dry, but consider all the facts.

GMH produce vehicles in one of the poorest demographics of the entire country.
Holdens is the life blood of Elizabeth.
To sack 2100 people would be devastating to SA.
There are not 2100 job vacancies for these people, the majority will be long term unemployed due to skills or age.

Consider this.

2100 people are laid off, 400 find work, that leaves 1700 unemployed.

When their redundancy runs out, they will wander down to centrelink and it will go like this.

1700 x $300p/w = $510,000.

$510,000 x 52 = $26,520,000.00p/yr

Now consider the lost taxes.

1700 x $300p/w = $510,000p/w

$510,000 x 52 = $26,520,000.00p/yr

Now, obviously the tax aspect must factor in, returns etc. but you get the picture.

It would in effect, be a $50mil per year hit to the states budget.

All of which doesn't include the support industry calculations.

The above figures will vary, but not by much.

Now, how bad are Holden.

Holden will close in 2022 regardless of hand outs. Will 500 million dollars spent on infrastructure improvements in SA (I say 500 Million because by the time 2022 rolls around I suspect this will be a conservative figure of what hand outs state and federal government will have given Holden to keep them open) able to generate 2100 jobs? I don't know what the answer is, but I think this is what needs to be debated. We have 1/2 a billions dollars to spend, do we keep Holden open until 2022 or do we invest it in something else? As I said, I honestly don't know what the best option is.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by GQ_Smooth

Holden will close in 2022 regardless of hand outs. Will 500 million dollars spent on infrastructure improvements in SA (I say 500 Million because by the time 2022 rolls around I suspect this will be a conservative figure of what hand outs state and federal government will have given Holden to keep them open) able to generate 2100 jobs? I don't know what the answer is, but I think this is what needs to be debated. We have 1/2 a billions dollars to spend, do we keep Holden open until 2022 or do we invest it in something else? As I said, I honestly don't know what the best option is.

At any other time in the last 20 years I would agree with you, but in the current economic climate, I believe it would be economic suicide.

Sentiment is down, many small businesses are hanging on by their fingertips.

There are currently 2 major infrastructure projects underway in SA, the south rd superworks and the southern expressway.
Then theres the Hospital, rail electrification, NBN, reclaimed water and a number of other upgrades already in full swing.

The Olympic dam expansion has been canned, soon enough all the FIFO workers will be back from the west now the mine expansions in the west are over.

We are talking SA here, the place is maxed out.

Another thing that I forgot to factor in with my previous post is the change to spending from an employee earning $1100 take home to an unemployed person getting $300.
$800 x 1700 is a lot of money missing from the cash registers of local business every week.

[KIWI-1]

1. Even using the rubbery $50million figure that's still a saving of $475million.
2. In 2011 the population of Elizabeth was 1,039 with only 515 employed full time. IF every one of those were employed at Holdens, 2000 employed at Holdens were DIDO.
3. The main occupations of people from Elizabeth are Labourers 23%, Machinery Operators And Drivers 13.5%, Technicians and Trades Workers 13.2%, Sales Workers 12%, Professionals 10.7%, Community and Personal Service Workers 10.4%, Clerical and Administrative Workers 9.8%, Managers 5.5%.

I'd hardly say that "Holdens is the life blood of Elizabeth".

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

1. Even using the rubbery $50million figure that's still a saving of $475million.
2. In 2011 the population of Elizabeth was 1,039 with only 515 employed full time. IF every one of those were employed at Holdens, 2000 employed at Holdens were DIDO.
3. The main occupations of people from Elizabeth are Labourers 23%, Machinery Operators And Drivers 13.5%, Technicians and Trades Workers 13.2%, Sales Workers 12%, Professionals 10.7%, Community and Personal Service Workers 10.4%, Clerical and Administrative Workers 9.8%, Managers 5.5%.

I'd hardly say that "Holdens is the life blood of Elizabeth".

You do know that Elizabeth is just the central SUBURB in what is and was designed to be, a satellite city don't you...1039 residents, is that on Philip highway, lol.

Im not saying that Holdens is the ONLY employer out here, it is by far the largest private employer, second only in numbers to defence.
Not all employees live in Elizabeth, but many of them shop in Elizabeth or Salisbury and this is where the secondary effects would be felt.

Please don't profess to tell me about an area that I was born and have lived in for 37 years.
YOU may not see the relevance of the automotive industry in Elizabeth, I certainly do.

Now, you might want to get that post deleted, to prevent further embarrassment.

Lets cut the bull **** people.
This sint about economics or funding, its about Ford closing and the thought of the other mob staying and its sour grapes.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

This sint about economics or funding, its about Ford closing and the thought of the other mob staying and its sour grapes.

I thought it was about "Workers to vote against pay cut to save Holden" and I can't say I've seen any posts about Toyota staying.

[GQ_Smooth]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Lets cut the bull **** people.
This sint about economics or funding, its about Ford closing and the thought of the other mob staying and its sour grapes.

Sorry mate, you had me until the last comment. The vast majority of posts on this topic are discussed in a very reasonable manner.

I personally see it that if we invest large sums of money into anything there is a prospect of long term benefit. If investing money into Holden is seen as the best option then so be it. If the money is better spent investing in more sustainable industries, then so that be it.

I'm yet to be convinced either way. I personally don't want manufacturing to leave, but I cannot see light at the end of the tunnel to allow them to remain.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

I thought it was about "Workers to vote against pay cut to save Holden" and I can't say I've seen any posts about Toyota staying.

The line you have quoted is about the attitude of many people not only in this thread but in every thread about Holdens future and it reeks of sour grapes.

Its easy to sit behind your keyboard and make judgements about peoples futures without understanding the implications that go with it.

Its disgusting to do it in the name of brand allegiance.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by GQ_Smooth

I personally see it that if we invest large sums of money into anything there is a prospect of long term benefit.

IMHO reducing the youth unemployment from 41% (the 2nd highest in Australia) would be a worthwhile investment. It gives them hope now, and hope for the future.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by GQ_Smooth

Sorry mate, you had me until the last comment. The vast majority of posts on this topic are discussed in a very reasonable manner.

I personally see it that if we invest large sums of money into anything there is a prospect of long term benefit. If investing money into Holden is seen as the best option then so be it. If the money is better spent investing in more sustainable industries, then so that be it.

I'm yet to be convinced either way. I personally don't want manufacturing to leave, but I cannot see light at the end of the tunnel to allow them to remain.

Yes, the majority do, its the rest that jump on the band wagon that im referring to.

None of us know the facts behind any of the decisions, we are simply fed a endless stream of contradictions from the media and anyone with a vested interest.
With that in mind, any calls for their immediate closure can only be based on innuendo and heresay, the basis of bull **** in my dictionary.

If they are relying on bull **** to form an opinion i'd say they're either naeve, or have a hidden agenda, im going with the latter, which is why I call sour grapes.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

IMHO reducing the youth unemployment from 41% (the 2nd highest in Australia) would be a worthwhile investment. It gives them hope now, and hope for the future.

Doing what, I already eluded to the quantity of projects currently underway in SA.
What else could they possibly find to give all these people work.

You said yourself 41% of youth are unemployed, how can closing an employer of 1700 people make that equation better.
Redirecting money from Holdens to youth unemployment is just robbing peter to pay paul.

The way I see it, keep Holdens open until the greater economic forecasts have improved.