3L - 195kw, 620nm, 6.1L/100km - Build a bloody Turbo Diesel Falcon already!

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by MY270

Exactly, I think most people would be more than happy with a Mondeo instead of a Falcon, even in petrol spec. If you're looking at a diesel family sedan, I doubt the FWD vs RWD matters too much to you.

.

Said it before and will say it again. Drove a diesel Mondeo all over Europe, 2 adults, baby seat, 5 suitcases plus various other bags of crap and the Mondeo ate it for breakfast. Cruise at 130kph, 1000 klms to a tank, really well appointed, all little turbo lag in first gear low rpm but then off like a rocket. DAMN GOOD CAR.

Thats why Ford Aus do not need to invest in a diesel Falcon. Because as I have said previously, it already exists, its engineering is already paid for, and it works.

Ford Aus should therefore be concentrating their deveolpment efforts and budget on LPG and leaving diesel as it stands in the product mix.

I love the Ford brand and have all my life. But if they dont get this right, the Aussie falcon is dead. It makes no global sense, and it has strong competitors within its own brand. The carbon tax will come with a lot of stings attached that dictate non green cars will be penalised and that means if its not LPG, its going to be penalised. Thats another kick the Falcon just cant take.

So listen up Ford. Stop dicking aound and get a great LPG powered Falcon on the road asap. Oh wait, you already have. Good work. Now forget diesel and market the **** off the thing!

[Kryton]

A Diesel Falcon may just open up the doors to the Euro market - something they could really do with at the moment.
G6ETd - the European market would love it.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by davway

A Diesel Falcon may just open up the doors to the Euro market - something they could really do with at the moment.
G6ETd - the European market would love it.

Yes with the dollar so high I am sure it will outsell BMW and Benz despite being more expensive.....oh and having the steering wheel on the wrong side....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 4.0i_SiX

80% or more of the petrol powered cars on the road more than likely have a catalytic converter that is well passed its used by date spewing toxic emissions into the air.

The average life span of an Aussie vehicle is somewhere between 15 and 17 years,
that means the oldest most common cars on the road are EF Falcon and VS Commodore.

So, 80% of the vehicles on the road are basically less than 12 years old...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes with the dollar so high I am sure it will outsell BMW and Benz despite being more expensive.....oh and having the steering wheel on the wrong side....

Yes those stupid English, driving on the wrong side of the road....

But you are right, the strong dollar relative to most other currencies
makes most export deals for Aussie vehicle out of the question.

I doubt sending Titanium diesel Territorys and Uber Falcon diesels to UK
would be justifyable but I could be just as wrong too....

[Rodge]

Merceedes-benz charge a $30,000 premium for this engine relative to the base engines in the revised C Class range.

I had an awful lot of problems with the diesel particulate filter blocking in my Merc which uses a slightly earlier generation of this engine making 173KW and 540nm.

Ford Au are better to stick to their knitting and work on on-going refinements to their world class inline six which is a brilliant and very inexpensive engine....my 2 cents

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes those stupid English, driving on the wrong side of the road....

Well they must be smarter than Australians as not only can they drive RHD vehicles they can drive LHD vehicles as well.......

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well they must be smarter than Australians as not only can they drive RHD vehicles they can drive LHD vehicles as well.......

Smarter than Australian legislators...

One thing, have you ever tried to overtake a semi in a LHD car on a single lane highway without a front seat passenger assisting you?

I have and.....well, it really sharpens up your reaction time.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Merceedes-benz charge a $30,000 premium for this engine relative to the base engines in the revised C Class range.

I had an awful lot of problems with the diesel particulate filter blocking in my Merc which uses a slightly earlier generation of this engine making 173KW and 540nm.

Ford Au are better to stick to their knitting and work on on-going refinements to their world class inline six which is a brilliant and very inexpensive engine....my 2 cents

here here!

[samftr]

BMW make a 3 litre turbo diesel sports car. Expensive but damn quick. In laws have a 3 litre x5 Td. Quite surprising performance, sub 9/100 economy
Wonder if the ranger 3 litre engine Would fit? (not the 2.5) they have tons of balls

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Merceedes-benz charge a $30,000 premium for this engine relative to the base engines in the revised C Class range.

I had an awful lot of problems with the diesel particulate filter blocking in my Merc which uses a slightly earlier generation of this engine making 173KW and 540nm.

Ford Au are better to stick to their knitting and work on on-going refinements to their world class inline six which is a brilliant and very inexpensive engine....my 2 cents

Now all they have to do is convince people to start buying the I-6 in sufficient numbers to keep it alive....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Smarter than Australian legislators...

One thing, have you ever tried to overtake a semi in a LHD car on a single lane highway without a front seat passenger assisting you?

I have and.....well, it really sharpens up your reaction time.

No but I have taxied many LHD aircraft near other aircraft and hangers and they are a LOT wide and much more expensive.

Overtaking as you say would require rearning and practice not unlike backing a trailer or reverse parking in a van or driving in mud or many other subskills required to drive but not ever tested....

[delete94]

Originally Posted by 4.0i_SiX

80% or more of the petrol powered cars on the road more than likely have a catalytic converter that is well passed its used by date spewing toxic emissions into the air.

Yes, I agree, that may well be the case, but you also need to consider that there is a significant, additional component to diesel exhaust, this being the sooty, particulate emissions. These can have a significant impact on people with respiratory illnesses such as asthma, or those that are predisposed to allergies.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Now all they have to do is convince people to start buying the I-6 in sufficient numbers to keep it alive....

There's how many decades ? of LPG readily available and so cheap in Aus I'm surprised its taken Ford Au sooo long to get their liquid injection LPG system almost operational.

In a world that's either at or very close to peak oil it looks like a no brainer to me. Why rely on expensive imported oil to distill into diesel ?
Diesel's are very expensive to service, the pzizo injectors are limited life items and extremly expensive to replace..little things like that get forgotten and in this crazy world were all people seem to concentrate on is the litres per 100 km's the overall cost of ownership seems to somehow get overlooked....and don't even start me on the massive 6 month fight I had with Mercedes-benz about my blocking diesel particulate filter, what an absolute bloody nightmare.... enough said.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

No but I have taxied many LHD aircraft near other aircraft and hangers and they are a LOT wide and much more expensive.

Overtaking as you say would require rearning and practice not unlike backing a trailer or reverse parking in a van or driving in mud or many other subskills required to drive but not ever tested....

Wider and expensive yes but all at low speed with visibility and no idiots coming the other way.

No, you really must try it sometime behind a B Double my friend or with a terrified passenger that's begging not to even try.

[naddis01]

How many times are new diesel car buyers going to be replacing their injectors, fuel pumps or particulate filters?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by naddis01

How many times are new diesel car buyers going to be replacing their injectors, fuel pumps or particulate filters?

About as many times as Euro buyers do?

[Mitch89]

Originally Posted by jpd80

About as many times as Euro buyers do?

Australians tend to drive a lot further than people in many European countries.

[GASWAGON]

"I know its off topic here, but I think the Falcons we drive now are far too advanced and techy compared to what the average buyer wants. ZF 6 speeds are awesome, but I wonder if the average buyer knows its costs $1000 to service and flush the oil when they buy the car. Or that spark plugs are $20 each. Or if you chip/scratch the alloy lower control arm, its unservicable and dangerous and needs to be replaed at the cost of $500 per side. Or the offset of their pretty alloy wheels allows them to buckle easily. Or the front discs on an XR6T/G6ET are something like $280 a side. It's the kind of expense i'd expect in something BMW or Merc."

$1000 for a trans service!.... Unservicable control arms at $500 each!... Oh dear... i'm having seconds thoughts already! Falcons are supposed to be cheap, reliable, and dependable.... So now even the trusty Falcon has gone too far.... Not happy Ford!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by EF_6

"I know its off topic here, but I think the Falcons we drive now are far too advanced and techy compared to what the average buyer wants. ZF 6 speeds are awesome, but I wonder if the average buyer knows its costs $1000 to service and flush the oil when they buy the car. Or that spark plugs are $20 each. Or if you chip/scratch the alloy lower control arm, its unservicable and dangerous and needs to be replaed at the cost of $500 per side. Or the offset of their pretty alloy wheels allows them to buckle easily. Or the front discs on an XR6T/G6ET are something like $280 a side. It's the kind of expense i'd expect in something BMW or Merc."

$1000 for a trans service!.... Unservicable control arms at $500 each!... Oh dear... i'm having seconds thoughts already! Falcons are supposed to be cheap, reliable, and dependable.... So now even the trusty Falcon has gone too far.... Not happy Ford!

I have put over 36,000 km on my FG R6 and have yet to experience
replacement lower arms, warped discs, and out of round alloy wheels.
I would be interested to know whether you personally have had the misfortune
of one or all of these occurrences or are you suffering from urban myth syndrome?

I seriously doubt that a ZF costs anywhere near $1000 for a standard service
and if it did, we would have heard the cries from BF owners long before now.

[Struggo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I have put over 36,000 km on my FG R6 and have yet to experience
replacement lower arms, warped discs, and out of round alloy wheels.
I would be interested to know whether you personally have had the misfortune
of one or all of these occurrences or are you suffering from urban myth syndrome?

I seriously doubt that a ZF costs anywhere near $1000 for a standard service
and if it did, we would have heard the cries from BF owners long before now.

Similar feedback as I have just put 18,500km on my FG XR50 since Dec 2010.

• No Warped Discs.
• Wheels are still true and the steering is still dead straight.
• Tyre wear is excellant without rotation, balance or wheel alignment. Tyre's are run at 38psi.

The only issue I have thus far, is that that Dunlop SP Sport Maxx's have become noisy after 15,000km

[GASWAGON]

Fair enough Jpd80, All points are valid. I like to hope the old Falcon credentials are still with us in the newer models and running costs are still reasonably affordable like they always were...Otherwise the economical advantages of diesel or lpg would obviously be outweighed.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Fair enough Jpd80, All points are valid. I like to hope the old Falcon credentials are still with us in the newer models and running costs are still reasonably affordable like they always were...Otherwise the economical advantages of diesel or lpg would obviously be outweighed.

Not meaning to single you out mate, there's a lot of half truths that get spread on
different forums and then someone's misfortune suddenly becomes the affliction of all...

while I would like to see a diesel V6 Falcon, I can live without it and
I'm still keen to see how Ford's other two choices fair in the market,
I have a feeling that fleets will love EcoLPi and that a new niche of
private buyers may take to the Ecoboost Falcon.

In that respect, I'm prepared to give Ford a chance to prove that
their choices are the best go forward plan for maximizing Falcon sales.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I have put over 36,000 km on my FG R6 and have yet to experience
replacement lower arms, warped discs, and out of round alloy wheels.
I would be interested to know whether you personally have had the misfortune
of one or all of these occurrences or are you suffering from urban myth syndrome?

I seriously doubt that a ZF costs anywhere near $1000 for a standard service
and if it did, we would have heard the cries from BF owners long before now.

Ok... I will clarify for you.

- A ZF auto requires approx 9 litres of oil to run. The recommended fluid is around $55 per litre depending on the dealer. We know that you need more than the box capacity to do a full and correct flush.

BF's had a plastic (yes plastic) pan that had the filter built into it, and the replacement cost was about $250. You could buy and aftermarket pan with removable filter for $350 to make future flushes cheaper.

Luckily for FG owners, Ford revised the pan to a metal type with a removable filter to drop the servicing cost. Filter is $120 - $150.

Then add the labour costs for the service and its tricky filling procedure. Which must be done when the oil and box is at 30 to 40 degrees.

So add it up, you're looking at $850 to $1000 to properly service a ZF with the approved fluid. Ford dont specify any servicing, as they are "sealed for life". But what car enthusiest leaves any fluid in their car "for life".

Alot of people use Transmax Z oil in place of the approved fluid. It works for 1/8th, but Castrol won't take responsibility for failures.

You can call Ford to check the costs, but they are a long way from the $250 full flush of the 4 speeds of old. There are lots of BF owners that cry when they find out.

- As part of the servicing underbody check, the technician is supposed to thoroughly inspect the front lower control arm. They are alloy now. I can't remember the exact dimensions, but a scratch of X cm by X mm deep can cause fatigue in the arm and a replacement is recommended. It's detailed in the literature Ford provided to dealers when the FG's came out.

- FG's use some of the same wheels as the BF. Particularly the FPV's. I've personally had 9 buckles and 1 cracked rim on my factory 19" rims. And I know friends who have copped buckles on their 18" rims too. In my case, these buckles mostly came from highway driving and entering the driveway at work with the wheel on the wrong angle. The inner bead of these alloys are not very strong anymore.

- Basic front rotors for a BA/BF/FG you can get for what, $60 each if you wanted. The rotors used for the performance brakes (XR6T, XR8, G6ET) are $200 to $300 each.

They are good cars. Not everyone will experience these problems or require a ZF tranny service. But its the nature of the beast now that Ford design them for style and appeal over the cheap to repair ruggedness most expect from the Falcons of old.

I was quite happy to take my old EL Ghia through the odd basic 4WD goat track and not worry too much. My BF, I'm too afraid to enter a driveway at more than 3km/h for fear of buckling another rim. I knew the majority of the costs and its failings when I bought the car, but not many people do, and its a complete surprise to them when they see a bill and go "but its a Falcon, not a Beemer".

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by arm79

Ok... I will clarify for you.

- A ZF auto requires approx 9 litres of oil to run. The recommended fluid is around $55 per litre depending on the dealer. We know that you need more than the box capacity to do a full and correct flush.

BF's had a plastic (yes plastic) pan that had the filter built into it, and the replacement cost was about $250. You could buy and aftermarket pan with removable filter for $350 to make future flushes cheaper.

Luckily for FG owners, Ford revised the pan to a metal type with a removable filter to drop the servicing cost. Filter is $120 - $150.

Then add the labour costs for the service and its tricky filling procedure. Which must be done when the oil and box is at 30 to 40 degrees.

So add it up, you're looking at $850 to $1000 to properly service a ZF with the approved fluid. Ford dont specify any servicing, as they are "sealed for life". But what car enthusiest leaves any fluid in their car "for life".

Alot of people use Transmax Z oil in place of the approved fluid. It works for 1/8th, but Castrol won't take responsibility for failures.

Leave the ZF alone, unless you do heavy drag or power work, there's no need to meddle.
If you do then as an enthuiast prepared to spend money to protect your investment, $1000 is cheap.
A few years back, Land Rover forum was saying ZF sell 20 litres of fluid for around $280 direct, might be worth a look...

I am so glad that I don't chase after performance tyres and brakes anymore,
stick with the reliable and dependable 17" alloys on the road and never have a problem.


The specs in the Ford Territory service guide are a bit different to this, ie.:
"Use only automatic transmission fluid which conforms to Ford specification
WSS-M2C919-D. Shell R128 Spec M1375.4 meets this specification."
Capacity is 8 litres if dry or (from the workshop manual) 3.8 litres for a service refill.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by mcnews

But the diesels have gained turbos so it is unfair not to use the petrol turbo as a comparison. Thus in its latest guise the petrol turbo makes 310kw, and as for more bottom end torque the latest six makes 565Nm of torque under 2000rpm and keeps it over a 3000rpm spread.... And easily gets 9 litres per 100km on the highway and 12.5 to 13.5 on combined cycle. And my last one as far as servicing goes cost me under $1200 over 3.5 years and 71,000km of ownership...

i know that, but i am talking about base model cars, not performance editions, the one you are talking about isnt even a ford anymore its an fpv badge. you can not get a falcon xt with turbo and 310kw, but you can get base model 4cyl turbo diesels with as much torque as a base falcon and half the engine capacity and nearly half the economy. the 12.5 to 13.5 combined cycle is very high compared to turbo diesels. your also lucky for your servicing cost.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by Rodge

don't even start me on the massive 6 month fight I had with Mercedes-benz about my blocking diesel particulate filter, what an absolute bloody nightmare.... enough said.

i dont think your 6 month fight is representative of the world of diesel motoring. bad luck to you, but look at how things are in europe, it works.

[4.0i_SiX]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The average life span of an Aussie vehicle is somewhere between 15 and 17 years,
that means the oldest most common cars on the road are EF Falcon and VS Commodore.

So, 80% of the vehicles on the road are basically less than 12 years old...

Yep, after 30,000k's your cat converter is already converting less toxins than what it did when it left the factory.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 4.0i_SiX

Yep, after 30,000k's your cat converter is already converting less toxins than what it did when it left the factory.

Not true,
motor companies have to guarantee emission compliance for a set time,
originally that was around 80,000 km but with Euro 3 & 4, that distance
now become 100,000 km and with Euro 6 it becomes 160,000 km.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Leave the ZF alone, unless you do heavy drag or power work, there's no need to meddle.
If you do then as an enthuiast prepared to spend money to protect your investment, $1000 is cheap.

Not just as an enthusiast, but as a normal driver. Like alot of Aussies, I have this car so I can tow things. Or drive long freeway distances comfortably. 2 of the conditions ZF recommend regular fluid changes.

They are listed as sealed for life to keep running costs down in the warranty period. Makes the car more attractive to people with leases. But its the long term owners or 2nd owners that will need to cop the bill.

http://www.fordmods.com/download/fil...3997&mode=view

If that link works, you can see the condition of the oil removed from a country driven 29,000km old BF N/A XR6. ZF "suggest" oil flushes to "extend the usable life of the box" too.

Originally Posted by jpd80

The specs in the Ford Territory service guide are a bit different to this, ie.:
"Use only automatic transmission fluid which conforms to Ford specification
WSS-M2C919-D. Shell R128 Spec M1375.4 meets this specification."
Capacity is 8 litres if dry or (from the workshop manual) 3.8 litres for a service refill.

No, same deal as a Falcon. But that 8l doesnt include the cooler and doesn't include extra fluid required to flush the box. When my ZF was replaced under warranty, the dealer needed another 2lt of fluid above the dry box capacity to be happy he flushed the cooler properly.

The fluid is made by Shell worldwide to ZF's specs and packaged into dealer branded shelf bottles.

It's also sold in bulk containers branded as Lifeguard 6. Lifeguard is the ZF branded name for the same fluid.