rekon dev5 or manual + dev3hl?

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by Sox

Because you're comparing a complete drive in - drive out package to your own half baked concoction, and then claiming the JMM stuff is expensive.

Bollocks, it lists what you feel is necessary, not what is needed.

Strawman anyone?

Rick.

What is strawman?

JMM = good quality, guaranteed off the shelf drive in out package but expensive.

wade, pacies combo = lots cheaper, maybe 10-20 rwkw short of JMM package.

Turbo > NA packages.

/end of story

[EFFalcon]

i wouldn't say garenteed package... we've seen on here alone that there have been people not pulling whats expected (on the JMM dyno), yes JMM are trying to fix those problems (good for those customers) but that by no means is garenteed, especially if you're interstate.

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Sox

I'd add more than that, HLA's need to be stripped, shims added, etc, etc.
I think you'll find most will charge around $250 to install and clock up a cam.

Ummm, no, i've had a cam fitted for just over $50 before. This was not mate's rates, although i did supply the shims.

Originally Posted by Sox

I wasn't implying that I did know, my point was to emphasize leads are included in the JMM kit, and people can spend anywhere from $50 to $150 for leads. If purchasing the JMM kit, they are not needed as the homework is done for them.

Though I bet next time this debate happens, it won't be included.

And my point was to simply say what they were worth, because you didn't know. Job done.

Originally Posted by Sox

Dyno testing I presume? Longevity testing? Finding the maximum amount of advance each plug can handle before detonation sets in?

I have dynoed my car with a number of different spark plugs, i have also tried a number of plugs (usually for 10,000km or more intervals). I did not play with the advance, but what i did find is that decent power can be made without the need to play with the advance, and spark plugs really don't seem to have a huge bearing on it.

Originally Posted by Sox

Tell us why plugs won't matter because of the head? Are DEV3HL's immune to detonation?

No car is immune to detonation. What is the most common cause of detonation is usually either timing or compression related. Since the Dev3HL does not have raised compression, the chances of it requiring different spark plugs to stop detonation is quite unlikely.

Originally Posted by Sox

How so? It wasn't mentioned that the specs may not have been the same either.

So please tell me what the point would be with us recommending he use the exact same cam as the Dev3HL, only with less lift? That would be pointless, and i honestly believe that you don't think we were saying that at all, rather, i beleive you made a stupid comment and are now back-pedalling in order to try and save face.

Originally Posted by Sox

FYI, maximum power is mostly governed by lift.
Duration typically sets where maximum power will peak.
Naturally there are other parameters which have an effect on power, however lift is one very important figure.

Mostly, perhaps, but not the ONLY way! My car managed 148rwkw on a STOCK EA head with a Wade 1004/110 cam (that DOES NOT require stiffer valve springs).

Originally Posted by Sox

Perhaps you should read up on camshaft design.

My car is making decent power. I have personally hand-picked (and installed) EVERY component in my engine.

Your ute is making decent power. You purchased all of your components as a package deal, and as such had no real idea as to what you were getting. You purchased your parts based on a power figure, not their specifications.

You may have had experience building other engines, but as Brenden Mock used to say a lot (on the old forums) "many of the cams that work on other engines, don't seem to work on the I6".

Originally Posted by Sox

You better have another look.

Nope, still nothing there. :P

Originally Posted by Sox

True enough, though it's not just the air filter that JMM supply, they modify the air box lid, fit the pipe work to make the filter fit, the bigger snorkel, etc.

Rick.

Correct. However, I managed to fit the pod filter into my airbox using a piece of plastic purchased from autobarn. The total cost was $16.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by dansedgli

What is strawman?

JMM = good quality, guaranteed off the shelf drive in out package but expensive.

wade, pacies combo = lots cheaper, maybe 10-20 rwkw short of JMM package.

Turbo > NA packages.

/end of story

Agreed, that's what I've been saying all along.

Rick.

[dansedgli]

Yeah but what is strawman? :(

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Sox

Money is hard to come by, I like to know if something works or not, if you don't, good for you.

Fair enough. However, there are enough people around now who have not used JMM gear to know what works and what doesn't. People are always willing to lend advice on their experiences. If you don't know what works and what doesn't, then you just need to do a search! ;)

Originally Posted by Sox

Maybe, maybe not, I don't know.
Different plugs 'may' allow him to run more timing, in turn produce more power, that's anyones guess considering his combination.

I know it worked that way on my DEV5.

I'll tell you now, my car DOES NOT and HAS NEVER detonated. My car leaned out (due to a problem with injectors) at the recent dyno day to 14.5:1 and it didn't ping at all!

You're right, perhaps different plugs can allow me to run more timing and get more power. But that does not alter the fact that decent power can be made without running anything other than standard spark plugs.

Originally Posted by Sox

The point I'm making is that the plugs, leads, and whatver ever JMM use, do have a bearing on the final outcome of there packages, it's reasonably easily justifiable, if you don't want to do it, don't knock someone who does, or prove that it doesn't work as claimed.

Nobody is really knocking JMM here, i think you'll find that everyone has said that JMM offer the perfect scenario for someone who wants to drive-in and drive-out.

What seems to be happening, is when people start to discuss the alternatives, you seem to have the need to shoot them down.

Originally Posted by Sox

At the end of the day, it certainly does appear the JMM cars have the dyno numbers and track numbers to back up what they do.

The track numbers perhaps. (although relistically, nobody knows for sure what's been done to the EB, and i know FOR A FACT that there has been more done than a simple Dev5).

Dyno numbers are a somewhat debatable issue. Just ask any of the people who have run their cars at one of our dyno days, and NOT one of them got within 10rwkw (some where even further away) from the JMM figure.

[LG]

Back to the topic, I'd say go a Dev3HL, manual, then just fork out for a chip as well. You should be pulling huge numbers then, and it will keep you satisified for a while.

Also take into account insurance. I don't reckon insurance companies are too keen on their clients having gearboxes that didn't come with the car from the factory. Also re-sale value on your car. A manual conversion on a car, that had an auto isn't that appealing to buyers. Maybe you should just get a Dev3Hl, on your auto. And save your money to do mods to your next manual car. My 2c

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Ummm, no, i've had a cam fitted for just over $50 before. This was not mate's rates, although i did supply the shims.

Great, that's an excellent price, perhaps Sydney mechanics rates are dearer.

I have dynoed my car with a number of different spark plugs, i have also tried a number of plugs (usually for 10,000km or more intervals). I did not play with the advance, but what i did find is that decent power can be made without the need to play with the advance, and spark plugs really don't seem to have a huge bearing on it.

So you admit to not tuning the timing, yet you claim you want to personally hand pick all the parts, know the ins and outs of every piece on your car, even know what the cam grinder had for breakfast last Saturday, yet you don't go to the miniscule effort of altering timing to see if you have extra power on hand. Curious?

No car is immune to detonation. What is the most common cause of detonation is usually either timing or compression related. Since the Dev3HL does not have raised compression, the chances of it requiring different spark plugs to stop detonation is quite unlikely.

Wrong.
detonation is caused by many different reasons, different grind cams require different timing curves. All engine combinations have an 'ideal' advance curve where optimum power is achieved. If you're falling short of that optimum curve, power is reduced, and the only reason why you may fall short of that optimum curve is because of detonation. If a given spark plug will allow 2 degrees more advance, you have more power, simple.

Do some homework on 'dynamic compression ratio' and 'static compression ratio'.

So please tell me what the point would be with us recommending he use the exact same cam as the Dev3HL, only with less lift?

Because that is basically what a DEV3 cam is (as opposed to a DEV3HL, HL standing for HIGH LIFT).
Wade would obviously recommend a cam which is similar to a DEV3 cam considering there is no head work and no heavy duty valve springs. Correct?

Naturally a DEV3HL cam in this instance will produce more power, purely and simply because of it's higher lift.

That would be pointless, and i honestly believe that you don't think we were saying that at all, rather, i beleive you made a stupid comment and are now back-pedalling in order to try and save face.

You may think what you what you like.

Mostly, perhaps, but not the ONLY way! My car managed 148rwkw on a STOCK EA head with a Wade 1004/110 cam (that DOES NOT require stiffer valve springs).

Good for you, wanna bet a DEV3HL would make more power in your engine.

My car is making decent power. I have personally hand-picked (and installed) EVERY component in my engine.

Congratulations.

Your ute is making decent power. You purchased all of your components as a package deal, and as such had no real idea as to what you were getting.

I knew exactly what I was getting, except for the exact cam specs. Big deal.

You purchased your parts based on a power figure, not their specifications.

Nope.

You may have had experience building other engines, but as Brenden Mock used to say a lot (on the old forums) "many of the cams that work on other engines, don't seem to work on the I6".

That's right, and after many lenghty discussions with Brendan, I settled on there camshafts because of the detail that he did happen to give me.

Nope, still nothing there. :P

Got ya glasses on?

Correct. However, I managed to fit the pod filter into my airbox using a piece of plastic purchased from autobarn. The total cost was $16.

Again, fantastic, you should be very proud of yourself for engineering a piece of pipe inside your air box.

The fact that JMM charge more for there $16 pipe is because unlike you or me, they have rent to pay, wages to pay, and many other expenses which go with running a business.

As I've said many times over, every time this silly debate comes up, for some people a Wade/Pacemaker (or any other name you desire) concoction is ideal, however for the person who isn't handy with the spanners, or just couldn't be bothered racing around to different places selecting the parts, getting quotes to have it fitted, and then not having any kind of guarantee whatsoever that it will work, JMM is ideal.

Are you just starting to see even a tiny bit of my point yet?

Rick.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by dansedgli

Yeah but what is strawman? :(

Sorry, this should tell you what you want to know.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Rick.

[BoZZa17]

=\ geez

[neil101]

Stockstandard: And I bet there are wades out there that can beat yours. Did these cars have all the other stuff making it an apples to apples comparison?

And I've yet to come across one that does, yes they had head work and extractors.


Stockstandard: So you are saying coz your mate went cheap and did no research that it doesnt work?

What I'm saying cutting corners does not give good results.

Stockstandard:What is being suggested is that if you do your research you can get the same results for less money and learn a lot about your car.

It is possible but not likely and doesn't always work out cheaper.


Stockstandard: BTW: 134rwkw is a good result.

Not for the money that was spent on it and the headaches caused.

Neil

[EFFalcon]

Originally Posted by neil101

What is being suggested is that if you do your research you can get the same results for less money and learn a lot about your car.

It is possible but not likely and doesn't always work out cheaper.

so nothing beats JMM gear?
and you don't learn about your car?

even run the 1/4?
i think thats a much better indication then just saying u've beat so many wade cam'd cars.. give us a time and we can talk :P

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Fair enough. However, there are enough people around now who have not used JMM gear to know what works and what doesn't. People are always willing to lend advice on their experiences. If you don't know what works and what doesn't, then you just need to do a search! ;)

Sure, but what exactly did the OP ask for?
He asked about a particular product, and sure enough (starting with post 5) all and sundry start on about how much better value other products are.

I'll tell you now, my car DOES NOT and HAS NEVER detonated. My car leaned out (due to a problem with injectors) at the recent dyno day to 14.5:1 and it didn't ping at all!

You're right, perhaps different plugs can allow me to run more timing and get more power. But that does not alter the fact that decent power can be made without running anything other than standard spark plugs.

So you're just happy with 'decent power', rather than the 'maximum power' that your engine may be able to produce?

Nobody is really knocking JMM here, i think you'll find that everyone has said that JMM offer the perfect scenario for someone who wants to drive-in and drive-out.

I don't think that's what 'everyone' has said here at all. It's not difficult to see the knockers, and that's fine, but I just don't see the point in going over old ground time and time again.

What seems to be happening, is when people start to discuss the alternatives, you seem to have the need to shoot them down.

Absolutely, particularly when the OP didn't ask about any other product, and the fact that much of the info is fairy dust.

The track numbers perhaps. (although relistically, nobody knows for sure what's been done to the EB, and i know FOR A FACT that there has been more done than a simple Dev5).

Predictable answer from someone with no facts of there own. If you can't match them or beat them - doubt or rubbish them.
Not fair play IMO.

Dyno numbers are a somewhat debatable issue. Just ask any of the people who have run their cars at one of our dyno days, and NOT one of them got within 10rwkw (some where even further away) from the JMM figure.

I don't really care what these people ran, in most cases they haven't clocked up the cam properly or have a clapped out engine, gee whiz, it doesn't take Einstein to work out what's wrong.

I've seen enough results and figures to know what works and what doesn't.

Rick.

[neil101]

I didn't say that at all!

You can only learn if your prepared to learn.

I'd be happy to show how a falcon should go

Neil

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Sox

So you admit to not tuning the timing, yet you claim you want to personally hand pick all the parts, know the ins and outs of every piece on your car, even know what the cam grinder had for breakfast last Saturday, yet you don't go to the miniscule effort of altering timing to see if you have extra power on hand. Curious?

There may well be more power there, and yes i would be curious as to see how much. BUT for now I am making decent power without having to adjust the timing to the Nth degree. I can happily run my car on regular unleaded and even if i get a bad batch of fuel, i know it will be safe.

Originally Posted by Sox

Wrong.
detonation is caused by many different reasons, different grind cams require different timing curves. All engine combinations have an 'ideal' advance curve where optimum power is achieved. If you're falling short of that optimum curve, power is reduced, and the only reason why you may fall short of that optimum curve is because of detonation. If a given spark plug will allow 2 degrees more advance, you have more power, simple.

Yes, correct, different cams require different timing curves BUT we are not talking about wild cams here, we are talking relatively mild cams such as the Dev3HL and Wade equivalents. Like i said earlier, you can quite probably get more power by altering the timing (and therefore using different plugs), but it IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO GET POWER!!!

Do some homework on 'dynamic compression ratio' and 'static compression ratio'.[/QUOTE]
I know the difference between dynamic and static compression, but as said earlier, we are not talking really wild cams here.

Originally Posted by Sox

Because that is basically what a DEV3 cam is (as opposed to a DEV3HL, HL standing for HIGH LIFT).
Wade would obviously recommend a cam which is similar to a DEV3 cam considering there is no head work and no heavy duty valve springs. Correct?

Naturally a DEV3HL cam in this instance will produce more power, purely and simply because of it's higher lift.

Wrong, and just goes to prove your ignorance when it comes to cams for the inline 6 (unless they are JMM). There are MANY different grinds available for these cars, and many of them are nothing like the Dev cams.

Originally Posted by Sox

Good for you, wanna bet a DEV3HL would make more power in your engine.

I wanna bet it won't.

Originally Posted by Sox

I knew exactly what I was getting, except for the exact cam specs. Big deal.

So what specs are the valve springs?? How much seat pressure do they have? What kind of lift do they handle?

I'll bet you have no idea, considering i had to tell you just the other day.

Originally Posted by Sox

Nope.

How much was ported off the intake ports? exhaust ports? how much was decked off the head? What did they do to the combustion chambers?

Do you know ANY of the above specs? What about the valve spring specs i mentioned earlier?

What specs do you know, exactly, given that you already said you don't know the cam specs???

Originally Posted by Sox

Got ya glasses on?

I don't wear glasses, but just in case, i sought a second opinion, and they couldn't see any egg either.

Originally Posted by Sox

Again, fantastic, you should be very proud of yourself for engineering a piece of pipe inside your air box.

The fact that JMM charge more for there $16 pipe is because unlike you or me, they have rent to pay, wages to pay, and many other expenses which go with running a business.

The apparent sarcasm implies that it was a very easy job. If that's the case (and it is!) then why does JMM charge through the roof for it?

I dunno about you, but i'm not here to pay JMM's rent. I am going to tell people how they can do it themselves, if they don't have the inclination, then that is their choice. BUT i feel they should be informed.

Originally Posted by Sox

As I've said many times over, every time this silly debate comes up, for some people a Wade/Pacemaker (or any other name you desire) concoction is ideal, however for the person who isn't handy with the spanners, or just couldn't be bothered racing around to different places selecting the parts, getting quotes to have it fitted, and then not having any kind of guarantee whatsoever that it will work, JMM is ideal.

Are you just starting to see even a tiny bit of my point yet?

Rick.

Exactly. ;)

JMM gear is good for someone who can't/won't do the work themselves. However, these people have the right to know of the alternatives before they make their decision. If they choose to go to JMM then that is their right.

I see your point, however, in this case, it seems like you are the one trying to knock the alternatives, not us who are knocking the JMM gear.

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by neil101

Stockstandard: And I bet there are wades out there that can beat yours. Did these cars have all the other stuff making it an apples to apples comparison?

And I've yet to come across one that does, yes they had head work and extractors.

That is nice, but I dont see what it proves. Exactly how fast is your car? what is your 1/4mile or 0-100 time.

Originally Posted by neil101

Stockstandard: So you are saying coz your mate went cheap and did no research that it doesnt work?

What I'm saying cutting corners does not give good results.

You are the only one who is talking about cutting courners here by bringing up an example of what not to do. It has nothing to do with what we are all talking about.

Originally Posted by neil101

Stockstandard:What is being suggested is that if you do your research you can get the same results for less money and learn a lot about your car.

It is possible but not likely and doesn't always work out cheaper.

hmm, ok. How is it not likely? If I call wade, crow, and surecam and talk to all of them about profiles for a particular engine configuration, then read everything I can on the forums, how likely do you think it is Ill end up with a cam that doesnt work?

Originally Posted by neil101

Stockstandard: BTW: 134rwkw is a good result.

Not for the money that was spent on it and the headaches caused.

I guess he should have done more research then.

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by Sox

Sorry, this should tell you what you want to know.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Rick.

HAHA you said (direct quote)

"If valve springs are not needed, then it won't make as much power as a DEV3HL"

Then I said

"Regarding this whole "egg on face issue", your statement was that because the wade did not require valve springs the dev3 would make more power. IMHO this statement, while quite possibly correct, is making assumptions about the cam profiles that we dont know about. As I read it, it certainly implies the message that the cam with the biggest lift makes the most power. Since not all other factors about the cams are equal the statement is pretty meaningless. Lets just move on."

How the hell does this make me a "strawman". It makes me wonder if we are reading the same thread here.

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Sox

Sure, but what exactly did the OP ask for?
He asked about a particular product, and sure enough (starting with post 5) all and sundry start on about how much better value other products are.

Fine, let's never tell people about alternatives! He might not have considered the alternatives, or might not have really known much about them. It is all a means to help people out.

Originally Posted by Sox

So you're just happy with 'decent power', rather than the 'maximum power' that your engine may be able to produce?

Refer previous post.

Originally Posted by Sox

I don't think that's what 'everyone' has said here at all. It's not difficult to see the knockers, and that's fine, but I just don't see the point in going over old ground time and time again.

People have begun to compare the two alternatives. Show me where someone has said "JMM are crap".

The point in going over old ground is because we have new members all the time, and we want people to be informed rather than just blindly buy because they don't have all the facts. We are here to share our experiences.

Originally Posted by Sox

Absolutely, particularly when the OP didn't ask about any other product, and the fact that much of the info is fairy dust.

Like i said, trying to inform of the alternatives.

Originally Posted by Sox

Predictable answer from someone with no facts of there own. If you can't match them or beat them - doubt or rubbish them.
Not fair play IMO.

So why don't you ask brenden about the ported and polished manifold that is on his EB then?? What's that? You didn't know it had one? Well, Brenden told me that there is one on that car, and that "it makes a huge difference". Now either he doesn't have one and was lying to try and sell me one, or he was 'neglecting' to mention it whenever the specs of the EB were mentioned. Who knows what else has been done to that car?

Do YOU? What's that - NO? Oh, seems like i have more facts that some people around here would think. :P

Originally Posted by Sox

I don't really care what these people ran, in most cases they haven't clocked up the cam properly or have a clapped out engine, gee whiz, it doesn't take Einstein to work out what's wrong.

So why couldn't JMM work it out???

Oh, that's right, there was nothing to work out, because the car acheived perfect power figures on the JMM DYNO!

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

There may well be more power there, and yes i would be curious as to see how much. BUT for now I am making decent power without having to adjust the timing to the Nth degree. I can happily run my car on regular unleaded and even if i get a bad batch of fuel, i know it will be safe.

And again, you claim you want all the facts and figures and details of past breakfast, yet you readily admit you use regular unleaded, AND feel that your timing is close enough. This is getting better and better.

Yes, correct, different cams require different timing curves BUT we are not talking about wild cams here, we are talking relatively mild cams such as the Dev3HL and Wade equivalents. Like i said earlier, you can quite probably get more power by altering the timing (and therefore using different plugs), but it IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO GET POWER!!!

No one said it was the only way to get power, however if you aren't even able to run optimum timing, you may as well bang your head up against a wall.
Do you have any idea on the effects on too little timing?

BTW, it matters not how wild the cams are, timing is still extremelely important for an efficient engine.

Your logic about timing is terribly flawed.

I know the difference between dynamic and static compression, but as said earlier, we are not talking really wild cams here.

And as I just said, it matters not how 'wild' the cams are. Are you aware that smaller cams can actually increase detonation?
I don't believe that you do fully understand the relationship between static C/R and dynamic C/R.

Wrong, and just goes to prove your ignorance when it comes to cams for the inline 6 (unless they are JMM). There are MANY different grinds available for these cars, and many of them are nothing like the Dev cams.

Sure, but the one they'll recommend for a an engine with no head work and standard valve springs will be similar. (Assuming of course typical road gearing and use, which is what the OP was after).

I wanna bet it won't.

Put your money where your mouth is, I will, I'll pay half for the cam and springs. And dyno it on the same dyno under similar conditions, with the exact combination you achieved your magic figure.

So what specs are the valve springs?? How much seat pressure do they have? What kind of lift do they handle?

I'll bet you have no idea, considering i had to tell you just the other day.

That's bet you'll win, I went through all this over a year ago, I've already forgotten half of it. I have the data on hard copy somewhere though.

How much was ported off the intake ports? exhaust ports? how much was decked off the head? What did they do to the combustion chambers?

Do you know ANY of the above specs? What about the valve spring specs i mentioned earlier?

What specs do you know, exactly, given that you already said you don't know the cam specs???

See above. In any case, once I had the head, I measured up the cam, measured the ports, too photos, etc.

I don't wear glasses, but just in case, i sought a second opinion, and they couldn't see any egg either.

The fact that you don't wear glasses should tell you something.

The apparent sarcasm implies that it was a very easy job. If that's the case (and it is!) then why does JMM charge through the roof for it?

I dunno about you, but i'm not here to pay JMM's rent.

You don't want to pay for there rent, but are happy to pay for everyone elses.
You do realise you've had a hand in paying Autobarns rent, the pipe manufactures rent, Wades rent, Pacemakers rent, gee, every single item you purchase is paying for somebodies rent, putting food on the table for them, paying for the kids pushbike.... I can't believe I'm even saying this, you have no idea how business works.

I am going to tell people how they can do it themselves, if they don't have the inclination, then that is their choice. BUT i feel they should be informed.

Including how to not time your ignition properly.

I see your point, however, in this case, it seems like you are the one trying to knock the alternatives, not us who are knocking the JMM gear.

You don't see anything matey, if only you knew......

Rick.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Fine, let's never tell people about alternatives! He might not have considered the alternatives, or might not have really known much about them. It is all a means to help people out.

Yes it is, though read the thread from the start again, the OP didn't even know what a vernier gear was. I don't think he is the sort of person who should head in an uncertain direction. His direction was clear to me.

People have begun to compare the two alternatives. Show me where someone has said "JMM are crap".

You really need to get those glasses, one guy here even has it in his sig.

The point in going over old ground is because we have new members all the time, and we want people to be informed rather than just blindly buy because they don't have all the facts. We are here to share our experiences.

Yes we are, but there is no point leading someone up a path which is not suited to there capabilities.

So why don't you ask brenden about the ported and polished manifold that is on his EB then?? What's that? You didn't know it had one? Well, Brenden told me that there is one on that car, and that "it makes a huge difference". Now either he doesn't have one and was lying to try and sell me one, or he was 'neglecting' to mention it whenever the specs of the EB were mentioned. Who knows what else has been done to that car?

I'm not sure of your point here? Who cares what's done to it, it goes well. How does your magical car stack up with it?

Do YOU? What's that - NO? Oh, seems like i have more facts that some people around here would think. :P

If that's what you believe, who am I to argue.

So why couldn't JMM work it out???

How should I know, I wasn' there.

Oh, that's right, there was nothing to work out, because the car acheived perfect power figures on the JMM DYNO!

Sounds like the other dyno read lower than the JMM dyno then, seems pretty easy don't ya think.

And before you even go to the JMM dyno reads high garbage, I remember a thread on the old forums where a member had his car on the JMM dyno and another highly respected Vic based dyno, and the results were identical.

All of my figures have also come up within 5% of of the JMM dyno (on 2 different dynos in Sydney).

Many dynos do read different though, live with it.

Rick.

[Psycho Chicken]

Yay, another day, another bullshit JMM debate that proves nothing.

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Sox

And again, you claim you want all the facts and figures and details of past breakfast, yet you readily admit you use regular unleaded, AND feel that your timing is close enough. This is getting better and better.

Like i said before, MY TIMING IS SET! However, I am not going to advance it to ridiculous proportions, just to gain a couple of kw. I have had bad batches of fuel before, as well as been in places where premium was not available. I like to have a margin of error there so i don't find myself doing damage to my engine because i can't get the ideal fuel. If it costs me a few rwkw to do this then so be it.

Originally Posted by Sox

No one said it was the only way to get power, however if you aren't even able to run optimum timing, you may as well bang your head up against a wall.
Do you have any idea on the effects on too little timing?

I'm not talking about not setting the timing at all FFS! What you seem to be saying is that you can replace your spark plugs, enabling you to run extra advance and give you more power. YES THAT WORKS! NO, IT IS NOT NECESSARY IN ORDER TO GAIN SIMILAR POWER TO A DEV3HL.

Originally Posted by Sox

BTW, it matters not how wild the cams are, timing is still extremelely important for an efficient engine.

Your logic about timing is terribly flawed.

And as I just said, it matters not how 'wild' the cams are. Are you aware that smaller cams can actually increase detonation?
I don't believe that you do fully understand the relationship between static C/R and dynamic C/R.

Perhaps i should have explained, further, i am not saying that it takes a wild cam to cause detonation. What i am saying is that we are not talking about extracting every kw out of an engine, we are talking about the 150rwkw mark, which is quite attainable without having the engine tuned to within an inch of it's life. I beleive that a setup like Dev3HL or similar level will not cause detonation by itself.

Originally Posted by Sox

Sure, but the one they'll recommend for a an engine with no head work and standard valve springs will be similar. (Assuming of course typical road gearing and use, which is what the OP was after).

And what exactly are you basing this on? Because i've seen NO evidence that supports this theory... (and i am aware of a LOT of cam profiles for our engines)

Originally Posted by Sox

Put your money where your mouth is, I will, I'll pay half for the cam and springs. And dyno it on the same dyno under similar conditions, with the exact combination you achieved your magic figure.

I would be more than happy to, however, that setup has long been superseded. I now have almost 170rwkw...

Originally Posted by Sox

The fact that you don't wear glasses should tell you something.

Yes, that i have perfect eyesight, because the doctor told me i don't need glasses.

Originally Posted by Sox

You don't want to pay for there rent, but are happy to pay for everyone elses.
You do realise you've had a hand in paying Autobarns rent, the pipe manufactures rent, Wades rent, Pacemakers rent, gee, every single item you purchase is paying for somebodies rent, putting food on the table for them, paying for the kids pushbike.... I can't believe I'm even saying this, you have no idea how business works.

Yes, I am paying their rent, which just goes to prove my point even further. All of these companies have rent to pay (just like JMM), yet they don't feel the need to charge anywhere near as much. The point of what i was saying is that i don't give a stuff who i'm buying things from (whether they need the money for rent is not my concern), but if i can get an equally good product for cheaper, then that's where i'm going to go. Saying that JMM has to pay rent just doesn't hold water, because so does everyone else.

And yes, i do know exactly how business works. I have my own business. :P

Originally Posted by Sox

Including how to not time your ignition properly.

Lmao! Where did it say my ignition wasn't timed properly? You seem to have latched onto this pathetic little snippet of information that you have made up in your own head.

What i said is that you don't HAVE to advance your timing to the Nth degree in order to get power. Yes you can gain power that way, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO!

Originally Posted by Sox

You don't see anything matey, if only you knew......

Rick.

Care to enlighten me, oh he who knows all???

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Sox

Yes it is, though read the thread from the start again, the OP didn't even know what a vernier gear was. I don't think he is the sort of person who should head in an uncertain direction. His direction was clear to me.

Ok, from now on lets just refer to you to judge people's mechanical knowledge for everyone, shall we??

Originally Posted by Sox

You really need to get those glasses, one guy here even has it in his sig.

I don't give a stuff what anyone puts in their sig. You can't tell me what i need and what i don't need.

Originally Posted by Sox

Yes we are, but there is no point leading someone up a path which is not suited to there capabilities.

If he is not up to doing it himself, then he chooses to go to JMM, easy.

Who the hell are you to make the decision for him?

Originally Posted by Sox

I'm not sure of your point here? Who cares what's done to it, it goes well. How does your magical car stack up with it?

My point is, that you said it has the times to back it up. It is a bloody quick car, no doubt about that. BUT i'm just saying that it is not even a pure dev5, so what relevance does it have to someone who is comparing a Dev3HL to one of the cheaper alternatives?

Originally Posted by Sox

Sounds like the other dyno read lower than the JMM dyno then, seems pretty easy don't ya think.

Originally Posted by Sox

And before you even go to the JMM dyno reads high garbage, I remember a thread on the old forums where a member had his car on the JMM dyno and another highly respected Vic based dyno, and the results were identical.

All of my figures have also come up within 5% of of the JMM dyno (on 2 different dynos in Sydney).

Many dynos do read different though, live with it.

Rick.

Yes, many dynos read different, and perhaps this dyno does under-read.
However, many stock cars were pulling around the 100-110rwkw mark, which seems spot on to me.
But what is also just as likely is that the JMM dyno over-reads... How can you claim that this is 'dyno proven'??
Sounds like nothing has been proven to me!

[neil101]

Stockstandard:You are the only one who is talking about cutting courners here by bringing up an example of what not to do. It has nothing to do with what we are all talking about.

I don't cut corners, It has been said why do you want to pay top dollar when you can do it cheaper, I was giving an example of what can happen and it has everthing to do with whats being said here, Bozza17 has asked for advice he has said he's not mechanically minded.


Stockstandard:hmm, ok. How is it not likely? If I call wade, crow, and surecam and talk to all of them about profiles for a particular engine configuration, then read everything I can on the forums, how likely do you think it is Ill end up with a cam that doesnt work?

So what your saying is just throw a cam in and she'll be right, To get an engine to perform at it's peak for maximum performance it all has to be matched, and I'm sorry paceys just don't cut it,genies are much better if you
just want to get a good off the shelf item they do work well with most cams and give good results I have found.
And as I've found time and time again wade,crow,camtech and surecam when I've spoken to them they have said to me can't garentee idle quality without a chip this is for a cam with decent lift that will make a difference with head mods. JJM stuff does has a lope yes but doesn't cut out at lights or hunt and fuel up while idling.
I'm over this debate I found JJM stuff to work as a package goes it's pretty good from a driveablity point of veiw, Not saying other idea's won't work and wouldn't be cheaper but I've seen it too many times where it ends in tears.

Neil

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by neil101

I don't cut corners, It has been said why do you want to pay top dollar when you can do it cheaper, I was giving an example of what can happen and it has everthing to do with whats being said here, Bozza17 has asked for advice he has said he's not mechanically minded.

READ CLOSER AND PAY ATTENTION: We are saying do research and you can have the same results cheaper. Just because you dont go buy the most expensive product on the marked doesnt mean you are cutting courners

Originally Posted by neil101

Stockstandard:hmm, ok. How is it not likely? If I call wade, crow, and surecam and talk to all of them about profiles for a particular engine configuration, then read everything I can on the forums, how likely do you think it is Ill end up with a cam that doesnt work?

So what your saying is just throw a cam in and she'll be right...

READ CLOSER AND PAY ATTENTION: "Talk to them about profiles for a particular engine configuration". How does this imply just chucking a cam and and seeing how it goes.

Originally Posted by neil101

paceys just don't cut it

How are you going to back this up? Saloon cars use them and are pulling 160rwkw+ with no headwork and relatively mild cams.

Do you have anything usefull to add, something you can back up perhaps?

[neil101]

Can i ask what you do for a living to back up your theorys?

Neil

[neil101]

Is a saloon car a street car I think not.

Neil

[neil101]

Having used pacys on my car I can say they didn't work gained nothing over stock on the dyno.

Neil

[EDXR8]

Originally Posted by neil101

So what your saying is just throw a cam in and she'll be right, To get an engine to perform at it's peak for maximum performance it all has to be matched, and I'm sorry paceys just don't cut it,genies are much better if you
just want to get a good off the shelf item they do work well with most cams and give good results I have found.
And as I've found time and time again wade,crow,camtech and surecam when I've spoken to them they have said to me can't garentee idle quality without a chip this is for a cam with decent lift that will make a difference with head mods. JJM stuff does has a lope yes but doesn't cut out at lights or hunt and fuel up while idling.

As stockstandard has said, spend some time researching your options and you can get some great results. The JMM packs are good value if you don't mind buying a complete kit that does what it claims to do and have no or very little input, for me that isn't what modifying cars is about (but thats just me).

I would also like to see the dyno results and tests you have conducted to state that pacemakers don't cut it. A huge number of falcons run them, including race cars and get great results. Unless you post these details with comments like that it weakens your whole argument.

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by neil101

Can i ask what you do for a living to back up your theorys?

Neil

ROFL - its in my profile mate.

Maybe my ideas come from experience - talking to a lot of performance engine builders (including JMM), doing my own research (reading almost every post on these forums for the past couple of years), and building my own engine.