Ford CEO - Falcon will stay! FWD or RWD?

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by ZA-289

Ever pulled a boat out of the water with a Falcon? Wheel spin anyone? A V6 camry would kill the falcon in this case.

the weight transfer to rear on the FWD (ramp angle and tow weight) may give more slip at the water at the back od a RWD.

I would love to see a comparison.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

The Falcon in most guises IS NOT a performance thoroughbred. It is a family chariot / taxi. Primary role: To get 4-5 large people around in decent comfort with decent luggage space.... and at a decent price.

Pretty much like German RWD cars in their home market.
What kind of car is a taxi in Germany ?

[EgoFG]

Just considering these comments on the FWD architecture ...

Originally Posted by Big Mike

Simple argument really - why shouldn't a company build cars with less cost

This is what the FWD was born from
Cost to build is less - maintenance they throw on the buyer.

Originally Posted by Big Mike

, less vibration,

Interesting, I understand that the theory here is Drive Shaft vibration - however the extra gearing on FWD is not without its cost - It would be interesting to compare two cars with the same amount of engineering, and in the same segment. Maybe FWD Lexus and the equivalent Merc

Originally Posted by Big Mike

more safety,

this is not evident in the Australian market, I would think that RWD in a frontal collision would more likely be safer from Engine dive train impacting the cabin

Originally Posted by Big Mike

better economy,

So, the same engine, in the same sized car will be more economical if it drives the front wheels. This could only be true if there was a significant weight reduction. Get me that Lexus and Merc again.

Originally Posted by Big Mike

better control and driveability,

I thought this myth was dispelled years ago - better tell the Germans.

Originally Posted by Big Mike

easier maintenance

If you never never to replace a transmission or clutch, or anything in that tight engine bay.

Originally Posted by Big Mike

and less moving parts

Interesting - perhaps this is tied to your economy point. It may be possible that there are less. but with all the "getting the moving parts into a smaller area"... it could go either way


I think we have all the arguments above -
FORD, do your research and give us the best Falcon ever !

[EgoFG]

Insomnia again

[loltastic]

Lexus don't make a FWD car, but Audi do. The A4 is FWD which is in the same segment as the IS250 and Merc C200K.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva
The Falcon in most guises IS NOT a performance thoroughbred. It is a family chariot / taxi. Primary role: To get 4-5 large people around in decent comfort with decent luggage space.... and at a decent price.

Originally Posted by EgoFG

Pretty much like German RWD cars in their home market.
What kind of car is a taxi in Germany ?

Did you see what I was referring to when I was quoted?? This:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljh74
If the Falcon is in the dark ages for staying with RWD, then so must Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin and just about every other performance car maker with 2WD models that build cars to perform and not to a price. I can't recall any decent FWD performance cars in the 6 figure plus price bracket.

So what people are saying is that if RWD is good for Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, BMW, Lexus, Mercedes then it is good for Falcon.

What a bloody joke. Come on then.. Show me a 2008 model 1.7t RWD 4dr sedan with 260HP from ANY of these marques that retails for $32,000.

Yes, BMW's are used in Germany as taxi's... so??? Thats what they build, why would they use anything else?? They prob get decent tax incentives, fleet discounts and a good supply of parts. Hmmm just like Falcon and Commodore here.

The fact that Falcon has remained RWD for this long has been a blessing.

And I have a funny feeling that if some of you guys were running things at Ford we would be driving Falcon sized RWD sedans with BMW ride quality, Mercedes build quality, Lexus Reliability and Ferrari performance in a car costing $32,000.....

That would last about 6 months till the company goes belly up.

While I'm not a fan of FWD, it will be the number crunchers at Ford making the decisions on this one, not FPV.

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Holden have accepted this and released a press statement that they will be concentrating development on aussie made small and medium cars as they expect these to be the big sellers in todays economic climate.

This is only in response to GM pulling the worldwide Zeta Platform that Holden was going to engineer....

[ZA-289]

Originally Posted by fmc351

The only way I can imagine a FWD being better on a boat ramp is if the ramp is covered in slimy algae, and the FWD wheels are still in the dry. Just walking on the algae can be hazardous, or hilarious, depending if its you or not.

Still the algae wouldnt last long under the wheels.

My point excatly.

[tex]

And if the tide is out, the FWD is even more screwed.

Stop it with this silly talk of front wheel drives being suitable for towing, as they are not!

[bathurst77]

oh come on.. how many people tow boats and how often?
yes some, but enough to justify designing and building a car.

SO far I have only seen 3 arguements why falcom should stay RWD
1- Towing a boat, caravan or heavy trailer (even a corolla can pull a small box trailer to the tip)
I would say most people who regularly tow heavy and buy new cars are buying Prado, Pajero, Territory, or X5 or similar anyhow. OK SOME are using new Falcodores, but not many. (we are only talking about new car sales here, not interested in your dads 12 year old 2nd hand futura, that buy didnt make ford money)

2- Hi performance.
Mondeo XR5 FWD great to drive. FWD can be engineered to go great these days. OR why not AWD for the hipo version (Get a few of those towing people too)

3- Tradies utes
IF falc goes FWD not build a territory based ute then? Can be RWD .. (and get a few more towies again).

I think 90% of average car buyers dont give a toss if its fwd or rwd, so long as it is priced ok, goes ok and has ok resale. And i think Ford want to sell to those 90, not just to the 10% niche group. Falcon is mainstream car, not a niche car.

The only thing iwoud say is, if it DOES go FWD, they shouldnt call it Falcon.
Falcon is seen in aussie eyes as locally built, 6 or v8, RWD, 5 seater (or ute/van). If its not that.. then its not falcon.. (coz it aint a meat pie if its got chicken in it...its somethin else)

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

oh come on.. how many people tow boats and how often?
yes some, but enough to justify designing and building a car.

SO far I have only seen 3 arguements why falcom should stay RWD
1- Towing a boat, caravan or heavy trailer (even a corolla can pull a small box trailer to the tip)
2- Hi performance.
3- Tradies utes

(3 may be more than you think when you think of a World Wide Platform)
4 - Platform economics with Territory
5 - Platform economics with Mustang
6 - Platform economics with CrownVic/GrangMarquis/TownCar (or replacement/merger)
7 - Better handling
8 - Cheaper Maintenance
9 - Better safety
10 - more flexibility in engine design (more room in engine Bay- V8,I6,Deisel, V6 alternatives)

[HSE2]

A FWD drive Falcon will not be a Falcon. They are testing it as a V6.

And Fords FWD platforms are doing so well in this country.

I won’t buy a large FWD sedan and Audi have gone on record stating people (drivers) don’t like AWD unless it has a rear bias in performance applications.

Driving dynamics come from rear wheel drive. An AWD system in a Falcon type car, well it won’t do that much for the handling and it will certainly kill the fuel economy argument. In fact just about all AWD producers are looking at on demand systems, hybrid and stop start technology to offset the extra darg created by AWD systems.

That’s going to work in a cheap large sedan. If Ford goes FWD without Holden doing the same at the same time Ford will be dead in the water. The only way it will work is if they both go and do it at the same time and leave the consumer no choice.

[XRated]

FWD can be made to handle. But in saying that FWD will be the demise of Aussie Ford Falcons. They're too heavy and have the wrong chassis/weight proportions to acceptably benefit from FWD - especially with such big engines. On the plus side; at least they are considering an AWD system...

Originally Posted by Rodp

Tryhard? It's not a pseudo AWD system, it's programmed to react that way. Cars that sport the Haldex system aren't track cars, and for the majority of your commuting in that sort of vehicle, you wouldn't even know it was running off FWD.

If you want permanent AWD or a split to whatever you want, plug in a Haldex controller and dial in your preferred settings. My car sports a Haldex AWD and it's staggering the amount of grip I get in the wet.

Mate, it's just the same people who haven't ridden in anything but their Falcon and base assumptions on a couple of biassed Youtube videos. The Audi S3 is a weapon and whilst the R32 might not be the quickest car it has awesome traction. Anyway like you said, the system is designed mostly for safety not rally car racing.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by XRated

FWD can be made to handle...

No they can't.

The reason there is a perception that FWD cars can handle is that 90% of FWD cars are small & light. Being FWD simply limits a small & light cars real potential.

Pound for Pound, make those same cars RWD and see the improvement.

[XRated]

Originally Posted by GTP006

No they can't.

The reason there is a perception that FWD cars can handle is that 90% of FWD cars are small & light. Being FWD simply limits a small & light cars real potential.

Pound for Pound, make those same cars RWD and see the improvement.

You're naive. For example your XR8/GTP couldn't hold a candle to something like a Renault Megane RS on a track that requires handling.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by XRated

You're naive. For example your XR8/GTP couldn't hold a candle to something like a Renault Megane RS on a track that requires handling.

That isn't what he said.

[BFZ Wagon]

Originally Posted by loltastic

Lexus don't make a FWD car, but Audi do. The A4 is FWD which is in the same segment as the IS250 and Merc C200K.

Sorry to correct you there mate but LEXUS actually do have a FWD car. They have the ES300. (It shares a lot with the Camry) : It was also sold in Japan as the Toyota Windom until Toyota starting selling the LEXUS brand domestically in 2006.

I also hate FWD! It's either RWD or AWD!!
The only (non sports car only) company I can think of (off the top of my head) that hasn't brought out a FWD is BMW. I doubt they ever will. I was amazed when Merc did with the A-Class. I never thought I'd see that.
When Merc owned Chrysler they were the ones who got them back into RWD cars.

[loltastic]

Originally Posted by All Wheel Drive

Sorry to correct you there mate but LEXUS actually do have a FWD car. They have the ES300. (It shares a lot with the Camry) : It was also sold in Japan as the Toyota Windom until Toyota starting selling the LEXUS brand domestically in 2006.

I also hate FWD! It's either RWD or AWD!!
The only (non sports car only) company I can think of (off the top of my head) that hasn't brought out a FWD is BMW. I doubt they ever will. I was amazed when Merc did with the A-Class. I never thought I'd see that.
When Merc owned Chrysler they were the ones who got them back into RWD cars.

Didn't know that... Cheers.

[XR6_190]

What I think he is actually saying is that of FWD is the only viable business case for a large sedan than Falcon will go FWD, if RWD is still viable, then RWD will stay.

Also I think it is great that he is staying comitted to local production of falcon.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by All Wheel Drive

The only (non sports car only) company I can think of (off the top of my head) that hasn't brought out a FWD is BMW. I doubt they ever will. I was amazed when Merc did with the A-Class. I never thought I'd see that.
When Merc owned Chrysler they were the ones who got them back into RWD cars.

Yep BMW wont make a production car that is FWD or a V6 (but I believe they did do a V6 race car).

The A-class uses the same tranny as the smart cars (but according to Mercedes warranty don't buy an A-class as they are the biggest piles of poo).

[dreadly]

FWD Falcon?! This ^%$T enfuriates me! This argument could go on for ever...... The simple answer is we tell Detroit to %^&$ off! And do something about Ford Australia.... Becoming just that.
A publicly listed compant on the asx, and have 1/4, or 1/2 yearly share holders meetings. With a appointed board of directors, ceo, chairman etc.
Held accountable only by us the shareholders of Australia! We vote and have some sort of control of the shaping and guiding of the cars we want and need..... Not some greedy bunch of pricks from the states telling us what we want and need!

[fmc351]

How do you delete a post??

[BFZ Wagon]

Originally Posted by dreadly

FWD Falcon?! This ^%$T enfuriates me! This argument could go on for ever...... The simple answer is we tell Detroit to %^&$ off! And do something about Ford Australia.... Becoming just that.
A publicly listed compant on the asx, and have 1/4, or 1/2 yearly share holders meetings. With a appointed board of directors, ceo, chairman etc.
Held accountable only by us the shareholders of Australia! We vote and have some sort of control of the shaping and guiding of the cars we want and need..... Not some greedy bunch of pricks from the states telling us what we want and need!

Funny you should mention this. I always thought that Ford Australia was started by Ford Canada which was separate from Ford US. I gather that Canada hasn't controlled the Aussie company for a long time and they themselves (Ford Canada) are probably controlled by Ford US now?

There should be more autonomy for FoA's operation. The Big companies, (especially the US auto companies just love to control everything and have it THEIR way. I bet they wouldn't like it if one of the big German companies like BMW, Daimler AG or Volkswagen AG wanted to take a HUGE slice of GM or Ford.
Upon rethinking that.. Daimler-Benz already did that when they bought Chrysler & that got offloaded within 10yrs of being bought/ 'merged'

I've probably strayed off topic now. My apologies.

[merlin]

RWD has a clear benefit for performance cars - not just faster times (AWD will be faster) but in terms of driving enjoyment. I have owned a couple of FWD performance cars and they were OK but they would have been SO much better in RWD configuration. FWD is a cost cutting measure pure and simple.

Anyone ever driven an Aurion? I think my arms got the biggest workout they have ever had - torque steer is incredible, in the wet it is sheer lunacy. This is with 200kw, the absolute limit I reckon for FWD.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by merlin

RWD has a clear benefit for performance cars - not just faster times (AWD will be faster) but in terms of driving enjoyment. I have owned a couple of FWD performance cars and they were OK but they would have been SO much better in RWD configuration. FWD is a cost cutting measure pure and simple.

Anyone ever driven an Aurion? I think my arms got the biggest workout they have ever had - torque steer is incredible, in the wet it is sheer lunacy. This is with 200kw, the absolute limit I reckon for FWD.

I remember reading an engineering article once that said 180 - 200kw's was the maximum amount of power you could safely and effectively put through a FWD system in a medium to largish sized production vehicle, im not sure if that theory still applies today, but i think its pretty close to the mark.

[ubute]

Yeah anything over 200kw on FWD is going to get you in the , and is pretty much the limit. However I believe the new Focus RS (not destined for Oz) is aiming at 220kw with FWD not AWD

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by All Wheel Drive

Sorry to correct you there mate but LEXUS actually do have a FWD car. They have the ES300. (It shares a lot with the Camry) : It was also sold in Japan as the Toyota Windom until Toyota starting selling the LEXUS brand domestically in 2006.

I also hate FWD! It's either RWD or AWD!!
The only (non sports car only) company I can think of (off the top of my head) that hasn't brought out a FWD is BMW. I doubt they ever will. I was amazed when Merc did with the A-Class. I never thought I'd see that.
When Merc owned Chrysler they were the ones who got them back into RWD cars.

Not under the BMW banner but Mini's are FWD.

A-Class for those who want a self powered badge.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by XRated

You're naive. For example your XR8/GTP couldn't hold a candle to something like a Renault Megane RS on a track that requires handling.

: Have another read (thanks HSE2 btw).

[Rev28K]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I remember reading an engineering article once that said 180 - 200kw's was the maximum amount of power you could safely and effectively put through a FWD system in a medium to largish sized production vehicle, im not sure if that theory still applies today, but i think its pretty close to the mark.

From the 1980's? Audi were quoting that figure around the time of the 100CD.
You might be able to bump that power level up a bit with modern tyres, technology, etc.

Re: FWD doesn’t handle, can’t corner. My stock DC2R Honda will keep a stock XR6T very honest in corners and under braking.

Re: BMW doesn’t do FWD. The 1 series space utilisation is a bit compromised by RWD. Their cash cow is the Mini (small prestige) and they have gone in to partnerships with Peugeot and Daimler/Chrysler for its transverse FWD drivetrains.

And now that I’m looking for a tow car the Falcons and Commodores are on the short list, large FWD’s aren’t (damn those Mitsu 380’s are cheap). I might wind up buying a Falcon but it is only for a very narrow application – comfy large tow car. If I wanted to go fast and have fun I’d want something smaller and lighter.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Rev28K

Re: FWD doesn’t handle, can’t corner. My stock DC2R Honda will keep a stock XR6T very honest in corners and under braking.

Because it's a lighter and more nimble car. It won't keep up to an XR6T on a straight because you'd be a lunatic to run the amount of power it would need to do so through the front wheels.

FWD hatches and smaller sedans handle quite well, change an XR6T from RWD to FWD and I think you'll get to the crux of 'FWD doesn't handle, can't corner' of those being specific to the Falcon platform.