Ethanol Fuel forces Lexus to recall over 214,000 cars - Page 3

vztrt · 21-01-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jondalar

To those that say water only effects cars rarely driven, you are forgetting that some servo's are only delivered to once a month, there's nothing to say that the fuel in their tanks will remain dry as it has to be vented to the atmosphere, same with tankers, so from the moment it's produced it's absorbing water.

The united servo where I buy from runs out of e10 quickly and I see the truck there once a week. I guess plenty of people are using it and not having issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

I want an ethanol blended LPG fueled single turbo clevo powered T3 wagon with GT stripes and badges........

It would be very collectable

Only if it has racing heritage!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

Toyotas never break down... it's just when they do, it's never their fault! Wouldn't want to ruin their reputation by just announcing a recall!

An ethanol debate has stemmed from poor engineering who would have thought.

**ebxr8240** · 21-01-2009, 08:30 PM

Last time I saw a river there was no pumps making it flow!!
Last time I saw an oil tanker it was floating on water!!
It would be very hard to freight without water in the sea..
So water IS used to deliver oil also!!
The quick cars at the drags etc run methanol mixtures which is close to ethanol..
In forced induction it doesn't require an intercooler.. I made 60 or so extra rwkw using E10 50/ 50 bp 98 mix over BP 98 alone..
In fact ethanol has a higher stoich ? From memory around 12 over methanol..
Plenty of race cars Indy etc have been using these type of fuels for ages..

About Toyota breaking down ?? They fail to proceed!! Lol..

mongoloid · 21-01-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I can't say with certainty but I'd guess you get a lot more energy out than goes into producing it as it's very energy dense.

It would seem according to the pages i have looked at that the energy yeild for 'gasoline' ranges from 0.74-0.80 and ethanol ranges from 1.34-1.67.

The figures for ethanol seemed to be properly researched and referenced but the figures for gasoline less so, im yet to find a legitimate paper confirming this.

**ebxr8240** · 21-01-2009, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mongoloid

It would seem according to the pages i have looked at that the energy yeild for 'gasoline' ranges from 0.74-0.80 and ethanol ranges from 1.34-1.67.

The figures for ethanol seemed to be properly researched and referenced but the figures for gasoline less so, im yet to find a legitimate paper confirming this.

Not much point when fossil fuels run out..Or we are held at randsom to high oil prices..

olfella · 21-01-2009, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

Vortex and V-Power Racing both have 5% Ethanol. Ultimate does not.

And thats a fact??

**ebxr8240** · 21-01-2009, 09:00 PM

Yea I was cleanin g the lawn mower with some E10..I used the dogs water bowl to hold it in..
A hot day and the dog came along and licked up a few mouthfulls...
He run around for about 10 minutes or so..
Then dropped down beside me...

The Monty · 21-01-2009, 09:12 PM

From the Shell website:

Shell V-Power is a 98 octane fuel designed to improve the performance of many modern engines. This is aided by Shell V-Power’s Friction Modification Technology (FMT), which is formulated to reduce friction between the cylinder and piston rings, a critical area of the engine where lubrication is difficult to achieve. FMT is designed to help the engine turn more freely, and so help transfer energy from the fuel to the wheels more efficiently.

Shell V-Power Racing has the same engine cleaning properties as Shell V-Power but is formulated with 5% ethanol and is a 100 octane fuel.

I found the caltex one the other day, but cant seem to find it now.

The Monty · 21-01-2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Yea I was cleanin g the lawn mower with some E10..I used the dogs water bowl to hold it in..
A hot day and the dog came along and licked up a few mouthfulls...
He run around for about 10 minutes or so..
Then dropped down beside me...

Thats because Ethanol wasnt meant to be used in such a vehicle.

**ebxr8240** · 21-01-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

That's because Ethanol wasn't meant to be used in such a vehicle.

Ha? good for washing...
They put caster oil in methanol to help keep it being corrosive etc..
I wander if these additives help here also ??

EDManual · 22-01-2009, 09:15 PM

I find that I get around 20% worse economy using e10. You have to floor it more to get the same speed.

I hate the stuff, especially pulling down forrests(amazon) and food issues.

Will never buy it again.

**ebxr8240** · 23-01-2009, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDManual

I find that I get around 20% worse economy using e10. You have to floor it more to get the same speed.

I hate the stuff, especially pulling down forests(amazon) and food issues.

Will never buy it again.

The Forest clearing isn't just for making ethanol..
What about acid rain killing all the forests etc from fossil fuels??
What are you going to use when fossil fuels run out..
Your car is not tuned to this fuel if its 20% worse economy..

Bill M · 23-01-2009, 12:01 PM

Let't not lose sight of the original post by kia chaser, the recall on Lexus models was because that the moisture content of some ethanol fuels could cause corrosion of the fuel rail with leakage implications down the track.
On a constructive note to re engineer an older vehicle (AU Falcon!) to run on E10, what fuel delivery components would need to be upgraded to avoid corrosion issues? Intelligent responses only please

:

vztrt · 23-01-2009, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

Let't not lose sight of the original post by kia chaser, the recall on Lexus models was because that the moisture content of some ethanol fuels could cause corrosion of the fuel rail with leakage implications down the track.
On a constructive note to re engineer an older vehicle (AU Falcon!) to run on E10, what fuel delivery components would need to be upgraded to avoid corrosion issues? Intelligent responses only please

:

Ford says that the AU will run e10 with no problems, so you would take it as none required.

Bill M · 23-01-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Ford says that the AU will run e10 with no problems, so you would take it as none required.

Ok, I knew that already but thanks anyway. I would be interested in any durability testing Ford have done.
Is anyone aware of any changes in the material specifications of the fuel system between AU and FG Falcons? Seals, steels, plastics etc?
Inquiring minds need to know!!
cheers
Bill.

The Monty · 23-01-2009, 12:23 PM

Like I said, 3 years now, and 120 000k's odd, and havent had a single problem. Except the nail in my tyre.

vztrt · 23-01-2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

Ok, I knew that already but thanks anyway. I would be interested in any durability testing Ford have done.
Is anyone aware of any changes in the material specifications of the fuel system between AU and FG Falcons? Seals, steels, plastics etc?
Inquiring minds need to know!!
cheers
Bill.

If ford is publicly announcing that the post 87 Falcons can run E10 then they are putting themselves in a position for a big lawsuit if they are wrong. Even if they have a floor full of lawyers. Remember e10 has been in oz for longer then you think. It was only after some of the private fuel stations were found to be running high amounts of ethanol in their fuel and the public outcry did the government bring in mandatory labeling of e10.

ehast13 · 23-01-2009, 01:17 PM

I use ethanol in all my cars and the worst that has happened is every engine blew up nine times and my dog died (killed by exploding engine). It is very nice in a cup of tea or as a dipping sauce for Turkish breads. Leave Britney Alone.

Bill M · 23-01-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

If ford is publicly announcing that the post 87 Falcons can run E10 then they are putting themselves in a position for a big lawsuit if they are wrong. Even if they have a floor full of lawyers. Remember e10 has been in oz for longer then you think. It was only after some of the private fuel stations were found to be running high amounts of ethanol in their fuel and the public outcry did the government bring in mandatory labeling of e10.

The private fuel stations were allegedly spiking 20% + ethanol. No shortage of engineering reports on what that does to non compliant engines. I don't place much faith in what a PR dept puts on a website. Look at how they treat their warranty claims and Ford the brake hose problem on the BA series. I am interested in engineered solutions or testing that can be verified. I do not believe that fuel will be restricted to only 10 % ethanol and the amount will only get higher as mandated by the Govt of the time. I also own a vintage vehicle and judging by the US experience decades ago ethanol ain't good for them!
How long has E10 been in general use in Australia?
Cheers
Bill.

Bill M · 23-01-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehast13

I use ethanol in all my cars and the worst that has happened is every engine blew up nine times and my dog died (killed by exploding engine). It is very nice in a cup of tea or as a dipping sauce for Turkish breads. Leave Britney Alone.

Are sure you didn't fill up your dog with E10? :evil3:

vztrt · 23-01-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

The private fuel stations were allegedly spiking 20% + ethanol. No shortage of engineering reports on what that does to non compliant engines. I don't place much faith in what a PR dept puts on a website. Look at how they treat their warranty claims and Ford the brake hose problem on the BA series. I am interested in engineered solutions or testing that can be verified. I do not believe that fuel will be restricted to only 10 % ethanol and the amount will only get higher as mandated by the Govt of the time. I also own a vintage vehicle and judging by the US experience decades ago ethanol ain't good for them!
How long has E10 been in general use in Australia?
Cheers
Bill.

It was a small amount of stations doing this. Most were compliant but as the media did (as they love doing) was to sensationalize the story. If you actually do go through the list it does say list cars that they do not recommend to use E10.
Ford would have done some form of testing otherwise its a liability case they dont need and bad publicity that would stuff the brand up even more.
As for the warrenty, Ford outsourced that to an insurance company so that's why its hard to get warrenty claims through.

Bill M · 23-01-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

It was a small amount of stations doing this. Most were compliant but as the media did (as they love doing) was to sensationalize the story. If you actually do go through the list it does say list cars that they do not recommend to use E10.
Ford would have done some form of testing otherwise its a liability case they dont need and bad publicity that would stuff the brand up even more.
As for the warrenty, Ford outsourced that to an insurance company so that's why its hard to get warrenty claims through.

I have been through that list ( I posted a link to it earlier) but as I have stated I am not interested in vague unsubstantiated statements and your remarks about Ford warranty just reinforce my point. If my older 2001 Falcon had issues with E10 would Ford treat me better than their new car customers??? dream on! Good verifiable test data is worth more than " my car runs well on ethanol all day and every day" from every joe blow.
cheers
Bill.

**ebxr8240** · 23-01-2009, 04:11 PM

Na!! My dog didn't die !!

vztrt · 23-01-2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

I have been through that list ( I posted a link to it earlier) but as I have stated I am not interested in vague unsubstantiated statements and your remarks about Ford warranty just reinforce my point. If my older 2001 Falcon had issues with E10 would Ford treat me better than their new car customers??? dream on! Good verifiable test data is worth more than " my car runs well on ethanol all day and every day" from every joe blow.
cheers
Bill.

Well then e-mail Ford and ask them. I haven't had issues on two cars and 120,000k's of usage. Normally when you hear of failures on cars it seems to be the fuel system. So if the BF onwards says (E10 compliant) I doubt too much has changed in the Falcons over the years. Injectors would be the thing that's changed the most.

The Monty · 23-01-2009, 07:14 PM

Its pretty easy really, dont like it , dont use it. Problem Solvered.

**ebxr8240** · 23-01-2009, 09:40 PM

Ahh the drama!!

olfella · 23-01-2009, 11:25 PM

What's our fuel made up of?
http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosp...rol/index.html

Bossxr8 · 24-01-2009, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

It was a small amount of stations doing this. Most were compliant but as the media did (as they love doing) was to sensationalize the story. If you actually do go through the list it does say list cars that they do not recommend to use E10.
Ford would have done some form of testing otherwise its a liability case they dont need and bad publicity that would stuff the brand up even more.
As for the warrenty, Ford outsourced that to an insurance company so that's why its hard to get warrenty claims through.

Front brake hoses are bursting on Territorys and at least one person lost all braking power and nearly crashed, and Ford won't issue a recall because not enough people have complained about it. Do you think that they would care if someone running a 10 year old Falcon had issues with E10 fuel. They could not care in the slightest.

vztrt · 26-01-2009, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Front brake hoses are bursting on Territorys and at least one person lost all braking power and nearly crashed, and Ford won't issue a recall because not enough people have complained about it. Do you think that they would care if someone running a 10 year old Falcon had issues with E10 fuel. They could not care in the slightest.

Maybe they were running e10 and that's why it happened?
I've run the stuff for 3 years and no issues.

I'll just agree with the monty and leave it at that seeing as this is a pointless thread and because Toyota's poor engineering a fuel is considered crap.

Bill M · 26-01-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Maybe they were running e10 and that's why it happened?
I've run the stuff for 3 years and no issues.

I'll just agree with the monty and leave it at that seeing as this is a pointless thread and because Toyota's poor engineering a fuel is considered crap.

So everyone takes YOUR experiences as gospel and lives happily everafter? One size fits all? There is a diversity of experience out there, intelligent opinion based on sound expertise. I was hoping this thread might flush it out, Sadly not so far...

Bill M · 26-01-2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olfella

What's our fuel made up of?
http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosp...rol/index.html

Thanks for the link, if they can answer some queries I will post the responses.
cheers
Bill.