Air Rifles

[MO]

If I'm not wrong..I think the true jungle fighter is a ghurka?

Who cuts your throat in total silence.

[camc88]

Isnt this about air rifles.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by camc88

Isnt this about air rifles.

Air rifle, machine gun it's all the same, weapons of mass destruction...........just ask Johnny

[MO]

Originally Posted by flappist

Air rifle, machine gun it's all the same, weapons of mass destruction...........just ask Johnny

yep Lil Johnny knows all about wmd's....look at the new IR regs/laws

[nobbystang]

The air-soft rifles and pistols are legal in some states of the US, not sure how many. From all the looking around I did you just needed to ensure it had the orangeg bit on the front to ID it as not real??? WTF, pitch black a cop won't know the difference or a small amount of black paint, and no more idea. Rang customs cause they said you can bring these bad boys in with a permit on their website but got a very blunt no from the lady on the other end of the phone.

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

The range is the same as the M16A2 (longer barrel) and it has better tolerance to sustained auto fire (due to heavier barrel).

A couple of hundred fps less muzzle velocity does not make for the same range.... why else would the specops guys in the states be screaming for more 6.8SPC, and now SOCOM has selected the FN SCAR as its new specops rifle, available in 7.62.... The short barrel of the M4 makes it little better than a MP5 in terms of engagement range...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

The short barrel of the M4 makes it little better than a MP5 in terms of engagement range...

I always found that my M4, AR15A3 and M16E1 always outranged my MP5A3 and UZI significanly. My M4 was actually a hybrid being a 14" barrel and gas tube fitted to a M16A2 upper and M16A1 lower with a XM177E3 buttstock, return spring and buffer but was functionally identical to the brand new ones I was playing with about 3 weeks ago.

The M4 shot about 2 inches lower at 300m depending on ammo used. The M4 was a 1/7 twist so it did not like M193 (55g) ammo and the M16 was 1/14 so it hated SS109 (62g). The AR was 1/10 and ate both happily.
All 3 rifles would easily shoot a 2 inch group off hand at 100m.
My MP5 was great up to 50m and I could hold a 30 rd burst in a 30cm circle at 25m. It was fairly hopeless at 100m as by that distance it had lost most of its velocity and became a bit eratic.

Did you find these results with YOUR guns or are you just quoting out of magazines articles?

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by flappist

Did you find these results with YOUR guns or are you just quoting out of magazines articles?

I'm talking in terms of lethality. There's a velocity limit that below that, the SS109 doesn't perform particularly well in terms of wounding. For the M4, that limit comes at about 100,150 meters (I don't have the reports here at home, they're in the office, so the range numbers are off the top of my head). The MP5 comment was a exageration. Im sure they group fine out to 300+m, but when you're dealing with "uncivilised" combatants, you want the best lethality you can achieve, ie its all very well hitting them, but when they're hopped up on god knows what (Kaaht? in Somalia) or willing to die for Allah and take infidel pigs with them (Iraq/Afgahnistan), they're not exactly going to sit down and wait for a medic. So much of the equipment and doctrines that was developed around cold war scenarios goes out the window now. The whole concept of wounding an enemy and tieing up their resources doesn't work when the enemy doesn't care if they live or die. Somalia showed the 5.56 Black tips didn't work so great from the M4, guy had to drill a skinny 3 or 4 times to get him to go down, they were just drilling in one side and out the other (The tumble velocity limit on the black tip is higher than for the normal SS109), rather than the round folding over and tumbling in the flesh.

The English had the same problem in India and Africa, hence the .455 Webly Manstopper soft nose ammo had "Not for use against Civilised Combatants" on the packet, having been intended primarily for maximum stopping power.
The Americans had a similar problem in the Phillipines, they were figthing insurgents that combined body binding and stimulants and found they needed more stopping power..

[flappist]

A MP5 fires a 9x19mm round (there are 10mm & 40cal but these are rare).
The muzzel velocity varies between 900 and 1300 feet per second depending on weight of projectile (115g-180) and load. The gun does not function well with extra hot loads as it uses a delayed roller lock system.
In a vacuum where there is no drag on the projectile it will take between about 0.8 and 1.1 seconds tp travel 300m.
During this time it will drop 8 to 11 metres or between 4 and 5.5 "people heights".
So in a vacuum you would have difficulty shooting as the target would be completely hidden by the foresight.
Normally the weapon is used in air.
The projectile used in a 9x19 cartridge is a round nose flat base FMJ or JHP.
This has sigmificant drag and the velocity will drop off quite quickly causing the actual drop to be in the order of 15 to 20 metres depending on air pressure, wind, humidity, actual proj used etc.
Once the velocity of the projectile drops below its critical value the rotation becomes unstable and the projectile tumbles causing eratic behavior. It will not group at that distance.

I did this stuff for a living for over 10 years and am still a qualified armourer (although I am out of the industry).
I have actually owned and used the above firearms in test, competition and hunting senerios and I can tell you that a M4 will drop a pig bigger than me at 250m with a single round because I have done it.

Have you actually used any of this stuff? And if so where?

[geckoGT]

MP5 out to 300m, stop it, you are killing me! The MP5 fires glorified pistol ammo that is worthless past 50m. Any one that has any experience with it will tell you the same.
At 100m, a wet great coat (big heavy woolen coats we used to have) would probably keep you safe from 9mm. An example is the discreet lightweight vests used by security forces will stop 9mm, it takes big heavy kevlar ballistic armour to stop 5.56mm. Best you check your sources.

As for special forces, I am not gong to enter this too much as for me to do so would require that I commit a federal offence by exposing secret information over a public forum (not worth jail time). I will leave it at this, I have served in special forces units and can tell you that you are very wrong in your information of what calibres are used where.

I would suggest that Guns and Ammo is not the definitive information source that you believe it to be.

[TURBOTAXI]

Me pull trigger, gun go bang.

I imagine getting hit by anything isnt good. I would imagine the ballistic energy of a 9mm round is pretty poor after 100m, I have a .310 Cadet that is probably ballistically superior to a 9mm, and let me tell you after 100m, medium sized game dont need to be too scared.

Lately I have fallen in love with fast .22's, the 22/250, the .220 Swift etc.... I have a really soft spot for my .22 hornet - that is a much underated round.

I still love using black powder too. My flintlock gives me hours of fun and frustration.

Since this thread has been well and truly hijacked, is anyone else a bit of an enthusiast?

[nugget378]

Yep, my current favourite is my weatherby accumark, carries like a mountain rifle but shoots like a range rifle

[Gammaboy]

I did say the MP5 comment was an exaggeration.
However you don't go chopping 6" off a barrel without compromising your performance significantly...
5.56? soft kevlar won't do it except at extended range.... I have to say I really don't envy anyone who spend much time in kevlar with the interceptor plates, I know spending all day in an EOD scout vest is bad enough (although its probably the same weight as a tactical vest with the ceramic plates in it given the extra shoulder/throat/crotch flaps)

I think i've hit a point where i'll just keep my trap shut cos I know what I know, and i can't be bothered getting into it any deeper on a public forum.
As for "Guns and Ammo", I can't say i've ever read it.

[ssb2005]

Originally Posted by TURBOTAXI

.22 hornet - that is a much underated round.

i got a nice anschutz .22 hornet, beautiful rifle

[TURBOTAXI]

Nugget, what cal is your weatherby in?

ssb Anschuzt are great, I love the german stuff. I recently picked a a 5 shot bolt action Walther hornet, the one I use all the time is a little CBC single shot break barrel, it has a tasco 2.5-10 mil dot scope and harris bi pod, it is awsome out to 150m, and good out to 180 or so.

[ssb2005]

i just got a 6x40 c-clear scope on mine, the rifle is set up with a hair trigger and is good for headshots on our smallish eastern grey roo's for 150 odd meters, very smooth bolt good for rapid fire on goats. the walther would be a nice piece of kit