Tune worth it - Page 2

blueoval · 26-11-2010, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day-mow

That's is...... Isn't it?

yes of course mate, but it was more of a rhetorical point I was making. haha. Most people here know it will be my choice when the time comes.

Dont get me wrong though, the SCT boxes are excellent in what they can achieve, but for a fraction of the cost and similar potential for power, it's hard to go past the J3's, especially now they have a DIY kit and they are becoming more and more popular right up to the AU models.

robbyj · 26-11-2010, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

Hey Rob,

That price while pricey is run of the mill for some of the more popular workshops. Up to you if you want to spend that sort of cash. I would seriously consider calling T.I. performance and asking them about what they can do for the AU. From what i know, it will cost up to $215 for the programmer pack which includes the J3 chip and programmer, and then all you need to do is find a tuner who knows J3's and has a dyno and pay him for his time to tune it. Whats that worth? $400 for tuning time? So $615 in total for everything??? I know what I would be doing.

thanks shav, i was gunna find where u posted that stuff about the chip and send you a pm.

Do you or anyone know of a good tuner who can do J3's

How long before you get this done shav?

blueoval · 26-11-2010, 04:11 PM

Rob,

Where are you located?

Otherwise check out this list of dealers/tuners who can help you out.

http://www.tiperformance.com.au/dealers.php

As for me doing it, I have other plans that are tying up my funds to progress any further on the car. It will be done, just probably not in the next 3-6months. I hope Im wrong coz I'd love to get it happening before then.

robbyj · 26-11-2010, 04:14 PM

about 2 hours north of melbourne in a country town. but travelling to melb is no problem.

blueoval · 26-11-2010, 04:16 PM

If thats the case, CVE i think is a site sponsor. I recommend them to do the work. Have heard great things by these guys.

http://www.cveperformance.com/

robbyj · 26-11-2010, 04:17 PM

ok thanks mate, ill shoot them an email.

blueoval · 26-11-2010, 04:56 PM

Just make sure you mention you are a ford forum member.

Barryxr6turbo · 26-11-2010, 05:00 PM

I'd recommend buying a tuner kit and doing it yourself instead of paying more for a tune. Tuning is easy and as long as you know what pinging sounds like you can tune it safely and make sure it's done right.

robbyj · 26-11-2010, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barryxr6turbo

I'd recommend buying a tuner kit and doing it yourself instead of paying more for a tune. Tuning is easy and as long as you know what pinging sounds like you can tune it safely and make sure it's done right.

Id prefer a professional tune my car, just because id screw it up probably hah

blueoval · 26-11-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barryxr6turbo

I'd recommend buying a tuner kit and doing it yourself instead of paying more for a tune. Tuning is easy and as long as you know what pinging sounds like you can tune it safely and make sure it's done right.

I agree with you Barry. If you know what you are doing, tuning it yourself is the best and you get to learn fast about how your car reacts. I would certainly give it a red hot go if I had a clue too. But I think getting it done properly on a dyno from a pro just has those 'peace of mind' benefits thats worth spending cash on.

I reckon if I was shown how it all works, I'd be more confident.

robbyj · 26-11-2010, 05:14 PM

Yea if ya sorta knew what to do and could play around it would be great.
and maybe a dyno to show some results of what your doing haha.

i emailed CVE shav, failed to mention im a forum member but will mention it in the next email if it progresses

robbyj · 26-11-2010, 11:27 PM

A reply from CVE

With the J3 it would be $550 or with the flash tune it will be $800 inc dyno time.
(forum prices)

and reckons he can see 10 rwkw with a 98 tune.

Barryxr6turbo · 27-11-2010, 03:52 PM

That's much better than $1500.

Dave_Obsession · 27-11-2010, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobuleh

A reply from CVE

With the J3 it would be $550 or with the flash tune it will be $800 inc dyno time.
(forum prices)

and reckons he can see 10 rwkw with a 98 tune.

Both those prices are excluding the actual product (J3 chip or X3 flash box), is that right??
If you added the price of the X3 back into that, you're back up at the $1500+ that was quoted by PitLane?
Will be very interested to see what the outcome of all this is.....have looked into the J3 chip myself but haven't done anything about it?

IIRC Jason (galapogos01 on here and fordmods.com) is the TI Performance guy - there's a big thread on fordmods about the progress they've made.....may be worth shooting him a PM and getting him to comment in this thread.

Barryxr6turbo · 27-11-2010, 05:15 PM

You get to keep the j3 chip. You need to leave it plugged it into the ECU.

That flash tune could be a sniper tune.

Dave_Obsession · 27-11-2010, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barryxr6turbo

You get to keep the j3 chip. You need to leave it plugged it into the ECU.

That flash tune could be a sniper tune.

I realise that, I was asking if the $550 that he was quoted actually includes the chip as well as the tune?? Or is it extra for the J3?

I'm not sure I actually understand how the sniper tunes work.....is it just flashed onto the ECU?

robbyj · 28-11-2010, 12:00 AM

"With the J3 it would be $550 or with the flash tune it will be $800 inc dyno time."

so thats 550 for the chip and the tune?
how busy are you before christmas?

Hi should be okay, we do these usually on Saturdays. Next sat may be okay, but dec 18 is def out if it is sunny.

Regards

Paul

from that i believe the chip to be included.. but ill have to double check.

Also as you say the chip is plugged into the ecu.. does the ecu eventually learn over the chip back to stock?

blueoval · 28-11-2010, 12:21 PM

Interesting.

That being said, I've been having this conversation with a tuner here in Adelaide about the J3 and SCT tuning tools.

I will cut and paste the conversation I have been having below. Would like to see what you guys think of it. My comments in blue, Ash's comments in red.

Hi Ash,

Just wondering if you guys know how to setup & tune J3 chips for EA-AU falcons?

Regards
Shav

Hi Shav , yes we have the software and hardware for EA-AU Falcon ECU and J3 cards.
Are you looking for V8 or L6 Tuning.

We have most files for both , but would need more specific ECU catch code information.

The Software and Hardware for the Falcon ECU range for remapping is relatively new and not all models are covered as yet.

Thank you for your enquiry.

Hi Ash,

Thanks for your reply.

I should tell you a bit about my car and what I am looking for first I guess.

I have an AU series 2 falcon, auto, inline 6.

Current mods to date are:

Raptor V Supercharger running 8lbs boost
Frozen Boost Water to air intercooler system with heat exchanger and Bosch Cobra water pump
2.5” mandrel exhaust system
Metal core hiflow cat
Pacemaker 4480’s
SCT flash tuner
3.45 LSD
36lb injectors
Walbro 255 fuel pump
HD trans cooler
Elec shift kit

Fuel type: 85 blend with 98ron fuel (40/60 mix)

What I am looking to do is the following:
1. Upgrade exhaust from 2.5” to 3” mandrel system, modify collector on headers to be true 3” connection, hiflow metal core cat (200cpsi), exhaust needs to be as free flowing as possible but as quiet as it can. Not looking for flashy exhaust system, just needs to be functional and neat. The current exhaust is restricting potential power as it is now so a 3” minimum is required for the car to progress.
2. Fit supplied reground wade cam and shims. Grind AU1645 (details of cam below) Its not a big grind but has been proven to work well on a mildly boosted system.
au1645. equivilant to e series(977b)
cam lift.=in-284 ex-284
duration adv= in-266 ex-266
duration@50= in-205 ex-205
valve lift= in 0.512 ex-0.512
lobe centre=114
valve timing adv=in open-20 deg btdc- close 66 deg abdc
ex open 63 deg bbdc- close 23 deg atdc
The cam may require new valve springs, but wade says it will work on stock springs, so individual assessment is required. I have a small stall converter I plan on getting fitted soon that will flash up to 2400rpm from the stock 2000rpm. It’s an overhead cam so it should be relatively simple to swap.
3. Im currently using the SCT flash tuner that has a been custom tuned to suit my car. All work was carried out by Bruce Heinrich. The unit I have is still the xcal 1 which is currently obsolete for further tuning. So the choice I have now is to run either an xcal 3 or J3 should there be support for it. I’d rather run the J3 if I can mainly because I have heard good things and they seem more user friendly, but that will also depend on what can be done for my current ecu system. I would not know the ecu catch code info. Could be done by looking at the ecu?
Effectively I’d like the exhaust and cam fitted prior to tuning to gain maximum benefit. Dyno work will obviously be involved.
If you can assist in information with the above work, and perhaps quote an all inclusive price, I would be much appreciated. Sorry for the long email.

Shav

Hi Shav, we can do any or all of the work that you require.

Looking at the modifications that you have and the fact that you are using the factory engine management I would believe that you are at the practical limits of the management.

The Ford PCM tops out at 7-8 PSI and shuts down to limp mode.
At present there is no fix for this but I do know that an aftermarket MAP sensor and work around are in development.
At this time there is no expected completion date for this.

It may be more practical to upgrade to a decent quality engine management system to take the vehicle to the next level.

We can offer several options , but the best of these would be a Vi-Pec engine management system.

This still leaves the issue of trans control.

Wolf V500 is supposed to offer trans control as well , but the typical Wolf ECU has never been very good at quality engine control.??

Feel free do drop in and we could discuss the options in more detail.

Thanks Ash.

I hope im on the correct thought when I say this but, the Raptor kits come with a MAP cheater to get past this issue I believe. I have one on at the moment as when the kit was originally fitted, Bruce did not install the MAP cheater as he felt there was no need for it. Little did he realize he could not get more than 3lbs boost before the ecu decided to ‘shut down’. Once the MAP cheater was fitted per the recommendations from Raptor, he could operate the car normally and tune the car accordingly. I have been running the car fine on 8lbs for the past 2 years. The SCT tuner has worked for me fine so far, but I’d rather look at alternatives to SCT boxes as they are more expensive than say a J3. Going an aftermarket ecu isn’t an option at this stage for me at the moment. I’d rather stick to the standard ecu and/or piggy back it. If J3’s aren’t an option for my model, I will resort to going back to SCT for an xcal 3.

Shav

Hi Shav ,sorry about the late reply.

The information that I can tell you at present is as follows.

EA-EL j3 port programming is the best option.
AU on SCT offers the best support in Xcal 3.

Things to note .
I have spoken to Raptor and the map cheater is a signal clamp.
What this does is stop the signal at a preset level to stop the ECU going into limp mode or shut down.
They claim full tunability , however as far as I know a signal clamp will stop the ECU from seeing over 2-3 PSI and all mapping from 2-3 psi up to what ever boost level results in the same mixture and timing tables being used .
What this means is to get correct fueling and timing at say 8-10 PSI you will end up with rich mixtures and reduced timing below 8-10 PSI (the same fuel and timing values at all points above 2-3 PSI).

The net results of this are washed cylinder bores , fouled plugs , wasted fuel , shortened engine life , cat failure and poor performance in low boosted areas.

None of this is ideal , but yes the engine will run ( FOR HOW LONG).

The reality of driving is that the areas of maximum boost driving are NOT 100% of the time , with the greatest majority of time spent in vacuum and the second largest amount of time spent in the low boost areas.

For example most of the time driving from traffic lights etc you may only see 1-5 PSI of boost accelerating between gear changes.

I don’t know about you but full boost launches and gear changes are not daily driving and are usually frowned upon by the boys in blue.

As I told you earlier I do know of a company at the moment working on the correct way of setting up the MAP sensor for rescaling and proper tunability of all areas of boost.
This may take some time , but is being looked at due to the issues I have outlined above and as yet We do not have a release date to work with.

Further to SCT.
At present We do not have the latest SCT Xcal 3 , but I am looking at upgrading in the very near future.

We dropped out of using SCT due to very poor dealer support not so long ago, however The Australian Dealer Distributorship and Support has been recently taken over by Herrod Motorsport and they offer terrific support.

Our aim is to offer the best in tuning solutions for all of our customers all of the time.
Hope to hear from you soon.

Thanks for clearing that up Ashley. I really appreciate you spending the time to explain that. The more I learn about what my engine is doing the better.

What I would like to do is get the best out of what I have now, and if the engine isn’t working to the best of its ability, I need that rectified.

My driving style is generally restricted to city traffic with the occasional squirt if traffic permits. But never over 5500rpm and rarely over 4500rpm. The engine will rev, but power is limited to the stock cam and limited breathing of the 2.5” exhaust at 4500rpm. I pick and choose my times to open the car up. I totally agree with you when you say about the boys in blue. But full boost of about 8lbs doesn’t get reached till 5500rpm I was told. Hopefully this info can show you the basic nature of the way the car is driven.

Im hoping with the cam I have, a bigger 3” exhaust system and the right tuning software, I can see significant improvement in the mid range to top end with any detrement to the engine. This is where your expertise is crucial and I hope you can assist. Being auto as well there is a limit you can achieve there too considering I’dlike to set the car up for hills driving. Did I mention I have a 2400rpm stall I plan to fit soon too? Down the track a manual conversion is on the cards.

I did hear Rob Herrod is the main Aus supplier of SCT boxes so Im hoping he can assist you in that regard. But if SCT can only achieve no better than what I have now with the ‘signal clamp’ issue, then I don’t believe going an xcal3 is ideal just yet. Agree or disagree?

I guess my question is, do I wait till there is a release date for the other company to get the software right for the MAP sensor? Can I still use the J3 chip option for my car? Or is there another option so I can make sure things are setup correctly when the time comes for the cam install and exhaust change?

I spotted that T.I. Performance support AU2 Intech motors in the way of binaries and definitions. Can I still use a J3? http://www.tiperformance.com.au/technical.html

If you arent busy on Monday, I’d love to come down and have a chat about it further Ashley. Your knowledge on this will help me understand immensely.

Regards
Shav

Hi Shav , always busy but pop in any way.

SCT is the preferred option and this other company that I am talking about are working with a map interface to use with SCT or J3 port tuning.

TI Performance are using the same US software that I use , but I do not believe that they have the boosted control issues sorted as yet either.

We need to have a good look at what you are running on the vehicle currently and then suggest upgrades from that point.

It would also be beneficial to do a dyno baseline test to see where things are at present ,including an exhaust back pressure test under full boost and load.
It may be that exhaust size and cam are not the issues????

This is the conversation I have had so far. If anyone who is in the know about J3 and SCT flash boxes could comment, I'd appreciate it.

Stattic · 28-11-2010, 02:01 PM

Very interesting

AUIIPURSUIT · 28-11-2010, 07:05 PM

im liking the idea of a j3 chip (even generic for now as my mods are quite generic)... Obviously once i require so, a new tune for anything else substantial added is easy.

Im also worried about the J3 being "out learned" by the stock ecu over time.. is this an issue or not? thats probably the biggest thing holding me back at this point in time.

Jimmyd · 28-11-2010, 07:06 PM

Sounds like you are onto a winner there Shav - someone who understands what they are working on and are prepared to share their knowledge is awfully hard to beat......

blueoval · 28-11-2010, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmyd

Sounds like you are onto a winner there Shav - someone who understands what they are working on and are prepared to share their knowledge is awfully hard to beat......

Thanks Jimmy. This is why I have shown some appreciation for Ash's expertise via email. He is willing to spend the time to explain things to me so I can understand and even though he is busy, he is prepared to have a chat. I will be seeing him tomorrow to show him what I have so far, and to talk about options.

He knows just about every ecu option out there for just about all cars based on his website.

Check out his website http://classicperformance.com.au/

Plus he is only 10mins from where I live too.

robbyj · 28-11-2010, 08:21 PM

Interesting convo there shav, keep us posted on how it turns out.

i might send an email to him aswell, as he seems pretty knowledgeable on the subject. so i can better explain myself to a more local tuner for what im after

Barryxr6turbo · 28-11-2010, 08:22 PM

Put a 2 bar map sensor in. You can ditch the map cheater and have resolution on boost with the J3 and SCT package.

The sensor is $150 odd from Ford and the loom and plug is $60 odd from CAPA.

You can also use the xcal 3 with the 2 bar map sensor.

Are you running a stock reg or an XR6T one? What injectors?

robbyj · 28-11-2010, 08:30 PM

Not sure about his reg but:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

Current mods to date are:

36lb injectors

blueoval · 28-11-2010, 09:21 PM

Yes 36lb injectors Barry. Thanks Rob

I will mention to Ash about the 2bar map sensor tomorrow when I see him and see what he says.

Barryxr6turbo · 28-11-2010, 09:32 PM

It would be interesting to see when they last tuned something with a flash tuner. The X3 has been out for ages.

If they have done a boosted BA V8, its the same idea as the AU. if they have done a flash tuner they can do the J3.

You use to the 2 bar sensor to overcome the boost cut.

It basically takes the VE and spark tables and makes the bottom half the NA portion and the top half the boosted portion.

If they say it cant be done go somewhere else.

blueoval · 29-11-2010, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barryxr6turbo

It would be interesting to see when they last tuned something with a flash tuner. The X3 has been out for ages.

If they have done a boosted BA V8, its the same idea as the AU. if they have done a flash tuner they can do the J3.

You use to the 2 bar sensor to overcome the boost cut.

It basically takes the VE and spark tables and makes the bottom half the NA portion and the top half the boosted portion.

If they say it cant be done go somewhere else.

What you say is correct Barry. Ash just confirmed with me that they can integrate a 2bar map sensor from a BA to my ecu and use a sniper setup to suit, meaning they can over come the tuning issues that could not be done previously.

That being said, I have booked the car in this Saturday morning for a baseline dyno run which will include a back pressure exhaust test, a manifold pressure test and what boost the s/c is running and an overall general consensus of where the tune is weak and what needs to be done.

Basically in a nutshell, Ash said that J3 are still in their infancy with regards to tuning for boost in AU's in the higher rev ranges, there are also limitations with support for the AU's in the way of J3. If you are keeping things n/a, then the J3 can work.

Ash's recommendation is a Sniper setup with the 2 bar map sensor from a BA turbo integrated to tune the high rev range properly instead of reading lower rev range maps and over fueling to compensate. The SCT tuner doesn't have this feature and will be limited to what can be done for the AU.

Price difference is basically the same. Not cheap either way, but if you want the tune to be 100% right from idle to WOT, you need to spend the cash.

SCT box is about $700 + tune
Sniper is about $500 + tune but add the 2bar map sensor and another $200

Ash noticed straight away that my exhaust looked restrictive. Said the cat was a low level quality metal core cat and that a 100cpsi cat would be far better as well as still LEGAL but could pose an issue with fitment due to its size, said that the hotdog I have will be causing turbulence with the exhaust gases and basically the system wasn't really matched for boost the way the setup was put together. He wasn't bagging the exhaust but rather mentioning that there is room for improvement due to the poor design and that there should be some more horsepower made with a 3".

What I am concerned with going a sniper unit is what it means with getting the car engineered and legal. From what I have heard, maintaining the stock ECU is crucial to get past the pits. So I will have to ask Ash on his opinion on this.

Barryxr6turbo · 29-11-2010, 02:40 PM

A sniper tune works the same way as a flash tuner. You flash in the tune.

I still reckon a diy j3 is the go. Dan's car doesn't overfuel at low rpm's and he is running 17psi so it's fair to say its getting a lot of fuel high in the rpm range.

Tuning all 3 options is fairly similar. I'd say he is saying the sct can't do it because he doesn't offer their product.

I don't know anyone other than dan with a forced au using a j3 chip so that's probably fair enough that he doesn't want to do.

blueoval · 29-11-2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barryxr6turbo

A sniper tune works the same way as a flash tuner. You flash in the tune.

I still reckon a diy j3 is the go. Dan's car doesn't overfuel at low rpm's and he is running 17psi so it's fair to say its getting a lot of fuel high in the rpm range.

Tuning all 3 options is fairly similar. I'd say he is saying the sct can't do it because he doesn't offer their product.

I don't know anyone other than dan with a forced au using a j3 chip so that's probably fair enough that he doesn't want to do.

There is some elements of truth there Barry. Ash said he hasn't used SCT since the fiasco with CAPA, and that SCT's support was terrible in comparison to Sniper. Ash is certainly capable of doing the work with SCT, but he is far more familiar with Sniper. So with that in mind, I am favoring the Sniper option with the 2 bar map sensor. Thats not to say he wont use SCT, he will but he said he will need the latest software and equipment to do so.

Seeing as the Sniper product works the same way as SCT, it means I dont have to worry when it comes to wanting to 'legalize' my setup. i.e. keeping my factory ecu and just flashing as required.

And yes Ash just says there isn't a lot of support in the J3 department for AU 6s for him to confidently tune my car to the best it can be. Dan is obviously an exception.