Vfacts August 2010

[08ESE]

yeah add territory 2wd to falcon sales to get a true indication.

it doesnt matter that falcon is the best car ever made here, australias holden mentality has seen the cruze outsell falcon.

its genetic boganism. we cant do jack about it.

[falcom]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Holden are maintaining relative good figures for the commodore range, but at what costs. Quite a few thousand has been knocked off the price of the commodore range in the last half year, to maintain half decent sales figures. And remember, these are from prices that werent even making Holden money then, imagine what losses they are racking up now.

I have regularly seen the XR6 at $32,990 drive away and the SV6 is at $35,990 drive away and is in run out mode so it appears to be the other way round.

The XR6 should be running out the door at that price.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

This seems to be the latest myth on this web site...

I opened the Sydney Heard Motor section today & on page 2 I see SV6 at 35,990.. This has been the price of the XR6 for 12-18 months... So your point is not valid in my opinion, becuase Falcon & Commodore pricing seems to be very similar!!

Well there must be some validity to my argument, as the last profit figures that I saw from the two australian operations were a large loss for holden and a small profit for Ford. (Yes we could argue forever that $200 million of the loss was attributed to the G8 program, or just a good thing to blame it on).

Probably the biggest result one may see from a manufacturer that designs and makes a car for no financial reward, is a car that is essentially the same after more than 4 years of first coming to sale, and a manufacturer who admits as much, by not being able to give it a VF title.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

FG has a very low TGW (things gone wrong) rate, it's actually lower than Toyota. So the reliability is there, and Marin Burela is the most passionate salesman you will ever meet. So that just leaves the dealer network?

FG is also fighting the legacy of the BA series Falcons and the first few years of Terri's. Lots of people walked into Ford dealerships for the first time in years and then walked out a few years later wondering why they did it, as they traded in their Falcons and Terri's for other brands. Both dealer and Ford Australia's attitudes would make many not even consider a Ford again, come trade in time.

Unfortunately Ford Australia seem content to just make do with declining market share, rather then address the problems.

Dan

[Windsor220]

Falcon will never outsell Commodore ever again. Its funny because if you swapped the badges over the Falcon would be number 1. Sad but true. .

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by jpd80

had it not been for the huge bath Holden took on GMNA canceling the Pontiac G8 export program,
I think both Ford and Holden would have made similar smallish profits. When you look at it,
the volume products of both sell for similar amounts, Holden has more low end fleet sales
but they also have more high end sales too. each counterbalancing the other...

In many respects, Ford Australia is like its parent, right sized to true market amounts where as
Holden follow the traditional model of chasing every fleet and high end sale. While Ford sales
look modest in comparison, they are probably achieving at least the same bottom line with
a fraction of the manufacturing time and effort, something the balance sheet supports.

Ford actually sell more Falcons to fleets than Holden do for Commodore as a proportion. Last time I checked anyway.

[Archilino]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

FG is also fighting the legacy of the BA series Falcons and the first few years of Terri's. Lots of people walked into Ford dealerships for the first time in years and then walked out a few years later wondering why they did it, as they traded in their Falcons and Terri's for other brands. Both dealer and Ford Australia's attitudes would make many not even consider a Ford again, come trade in time.

Unfortunately Ford Australia seem content to just make do with declining market share, rather then address the problems.

Dan

This. I know a few people that got burned with the quality issues of ba series falcons, all have since changed over and refuse to look at another new falcon again.

[GTP-03]

Isn't there a waiting list on most Fords? Also the fact that Ford doesnt have the infastructure to build as many cars as Holden? As long as they sell as many cars as they make and make money on them, sales figures dont really account to the company losing money. This is what a lot of people dont realise.

[csv8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Fiesta - 911
Focus - 727
Mondeo - 440
Falcon - 2,344
Escape - 150
Territory - 1,093
Falcon Ute - 876
Ranger - 1,464
Transit - 197



Mondeo's position in the Mid-Size car market this month:

Top 10 Selling Mid-Size Cars:

1. Toyota Camry - 1,955
2. Mazda 6 - 485
3. Ford Mondeo - 440
4. Subaru Liberty - 429
5. Honda Accord Euro - 307
6. Volkswagen Passat - 295
7. Volkswagen Jetta - 240
8. Skoda Octavia - 151
= 9. Hyundai i45 - 148
= 9. Suzuki Kizashi - 148

Holden Epica - 89

Thank you jpd80

[grimmo82]

Some of the sales that are lost may be people waiting for coyote models rather than buying a Boss Xr8 then getting burned when the new one comes out.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by naddis01

Ford actually sell more Falcons to fleets than Holden do for Commodore as a proportion. Last time I checked anyway.

Fleet is a very broad term, it simply means non-private buyer but can include things like
daily rentals, small and large business fleets, government fleet and taxis
(Ford and Holden are "out" of taxi market today)
A lot of those business fleets include user chooser novated leases and
rental sales are a reaction due to people wanting to rent Falcons.

These are the figures posted in June Vfacts thread:

Ford Falcon - 13,349 - YTD - May

Private - 2,274
Business (small fleet) - 4,133
Business (large fleet) - 1,737
Rental - 2,744
Government - 1,528
Not For Profit Organisation - 414
Other - 519

Holden Commodore - 18,428 - YTD - May

Private - 4,972
Business (small fleet) - 6,114
Business (large fleet) - 1,397
Rental - 1,451
Government - 3,005
Not For Profit Organisation - 185
Other - 1,304

Holden are legendary for dumping into government fleets, a few years back they
used to offer Telstra Omegas up to 40% off RRP, the best Ford would do was $25%..
No doubt they are really going to town these days with the 3.0 SIDI Omega because
Ford doesn't offer an XT that matches the official FE of the 3.0SIDI but hopefully,
the EB I-4 will remedy that and open up the 4 cylinder only government markets to Falcon.

Not meaning to dump on Holden here and in fairness, fleet sales these day are not
the wholesale discounts of years gone by, the likes of Toyota and Hyundai seem to
be capturing a lot of the four cylinder fleet markets, Ford and Holden need to remedy this IMO..

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Fleet is a very broad term, it simply means non-private buyer but can include things like
daily rentals, small and large business fleets, government fleet and taxis
(Ford and Holden are "out" of taxi market today)
A lot of those business fleets include user chooser novated leases and
rental sales are a reaction due to people wanting to rent Falcons.

These are the figures posted in June Vfacts thread:

Ford Falcon - 13,349 - YTD - May

Private - 2,274
Business (small fleet) - 4,133
Business (large fleet) - 1,737
Rental - 2,744
Government - 1,528
Not For Profit Organisation - 414
Other - 519

Holden Commodore - 18,428 - YTD - May

Private - 4,972
Business (small fleet) - 6,114
Business (large fleet) - 1,397
Rental - 1,451
Government - 3,005
Not For Profit Organisation - 185
Other - 1,304

I realise that as those are the figures I posted back in May. Fleet is a broad term and does include all of those things but wouldn't lease companies be receiving a discount as well?

At the end of the day there are very few (or any) of us that actually know how much each manufacturer is making on each car. I would say Holden may well have posted a small profit as well if it wasn't for their failed export program. Most on here also directly relate the manufacturers profits (or losses) to their Australian made models but completely ignore their imported models. Obviously these models have an impact on the bottom line as well.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by GTP-03

Isn't there a waiting list on most Fords? Also the fact that Ford doesnt have the infastructure to build as many cars as Holden? As long as they sell as many cars as they make and make money on them, sales figures dont really account to the company losing money. This is what a lot of people dont realise.

Ford don't make as many cars as they can. They make as many cars as they have customers left. An entirely different concept.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by naddis01

I realise that as those are the figures I posted back in May. Fleet is a broad term and does include all of those things but wouldn't lease companies be receiving a discount as well?

Lease companies do get a discount but make most of their income through interest charged on the lease term, those surrender values are usually conservative.

At the end of the day there are very few (or any) of us that actually know how much each manufacturer is making on each car.

For each car no, but annual results give a clue to the overall business costs
and that says far more about a company that what one particular model makes.

I would say Holden may well have posted a small profit as well if it wasn't for their failed export program. Most on here also directly relate the manufacturers profits (or losses) to their Australian made models but completely ignore their imported models. Obviously these models have an impact on the bottom line as well.

Penalties for withdrawing from or reducing long term supply contracts?
I think this was discussed a couple of months back regarding Holden
wanting to keep two shifts at Elizabeth.

And yes, Holden would have made a profit without the G8 losses piled on
but they didn't, they made a loss in 2009 just like they did in 2008, 2007, 2006 and 2005.
All years where they had Exports to Middle East and USA, kinda makes you wonder hey....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Ford don't make as many cars as they can. They make as many cars as they have customers left. An entirely different concept.

At least FoA is making a profit, something Holden hasn't done since 2004.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

At least FoA is making a profit, something Holden hasn't done since 2004.

Agreed. Although Ford Australia was not setup to be a niche player in a declining market. Someone at Ford knows they screwded the pooch with a lot of old customers and is trying to make the best of a bad situation, with limited money to do it.

Improve the car (FG), drive down costs (redundancies and suppliers) and maximise the dollar return until you either get the investment to turn the ship around or bail out of the market after recouping your costs.

Interesting times.

Dan

[prydey]

i can't believe the negativity toward ford every time these sale threads appear! if i looked on here before buying my ba i wouldn't have gone near it. anyone reading the comments on here would think the ba was a worse car than the ea. i never owned an au but drove a few, however i traded up from an ef and el falcon to my ba and i thought it was a great car. i had a bf2 after that with similar experience.

i think one of the biggest issues on this site is the expectations. people need to realise that these forums represent a very small cross section of actual sales and bad reports will always get a lot more attention/air time than those with no problems. ford falcon isn't a hand made vehicle. its mass produced and like most things made in large quantities, there will be a few niggles here and there.

there are those who understand how it is in australia though. its all about the badge and i've been saying it for years. if you swap the badges falcon would be top. the amount of people that wouldn't be seen dead in a daewoo but they lap up the barina and cruze (although i'm led to believe its a different platform).

ford sales will never be what they used to be. have a look at the variety of cars on the market. you can't keep selling the same amount of mars bars when suddenly you have snickers, picnic and boost selling alongside.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Ford don't make as many cars as they can. They make as many cars as they have customers left. An entirely different concept.

And if you think Holden or Toyota are building cars in this country at MAX capacity, you're dreaming!!

There is nothing wrong with building to demand, even if it is not what we’d like.. I just hope they are making money & can continue to make a business case out of it to Ford US.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Agreed. Although Ford Australia was not setup to be a niche player in a declining market. Someone at Ford knows they screwded the pooch with a lot of old customers and is trying to make the best of a bad situation, with limited money to do it.

Improve the car (FG), drive down costs (redundancies and suppliers) and maximise the dollar return until you either get the investment to turn the ship around or bail out of the market after recouping your costs.

Interesting times.

Dan

No, a lot of their sales were based around high volume low profit models like XT. In those older days, Falcon had to sell in high numbers to get reasonable profit, a lot of empty production. Today, Ford has found by building more desirable cars in lower numbers, they make similar profit with far less expenditure.

Look how well Ford does with basically no XT sales, a model that used to account for around 60% of all Falcon sales. Seems they really added nothing to the Falcon business case.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Unfortunately Ford Australia seem content to just make do with declining market share, rather then address the problems.

Dan

Well that have been addressing the issues, problem is this is not an overnight job. They also did a very smart thing with developing the territory. The amount of people that I talk to love them or want to buy one. Seeing as the SUV is in a growing market share this is a profitable market that can keep FoA building as well as designing.

Originally Posted by GTP-03

Isn't there a waiting list on most Fords? Also the fact that Ford doesn't have the infrastructure to build as many cars as Holden? As long as they sell as many cars as they make and make money on them, sales figures dont really account to the company losing money. This is what a lot of people dont realise.

For are building about 270 units a day, but have the capacity to put out 550 units a day. Mind you this does require about 3 months of work to get it happening. For the time being they are doing o/t for extra units.

.......................

If we look at the situation at the moment the Falcon is missing a V8, the Wagon is gone (so fleets are buying Mondeo's, rangers, etc), LPG has a limited number of units, also Holden is in runout so they have good deals going. The Terri is old and is still pulling good numbers but until the new model and the diesel are out Ford will keep selling them at a cut price.

FPV just released their new V8 so for the next 12 months Ford will be releasing their new LPG (for was selling plent of e-gas in the day this is needed badly), New Terri with Diesel option, ecoboost Falcon and hopefully new XR8 and G8E.

These numbers are showing that they don't have that much for the buyer.

[Brazen]

Great news for Holden with the Cruze with no hatch and the Commodore being 4 years old.

Disraceful numbers for Ford, Falcon ute should be selling 2000 a month with its massive emphasis on fleet. Falcon sedan should be selling a lot more with its low profit rental sales. There is no way whatsoever there will be a standalong Falcon model next time round. It will be combined with Taurus.

[Fordman]

All to be expected, Focus was disapointing though, it doesnt get outsold by fiesta much - or didnt

[prydey]

all those worried about the 'numbers', is it because you are losing the arguments down at the pub or in the school playground?

winning the sales numbers seems overly important to some

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

This seems to be the latest myth on this web site...

I opened the Sydney Heard Motor section today & on page 2 I see SV6 at 35,990.. This has been the price of the XR6 for 12-18 months... So your point is not valid in my opinion, becuase Falcon & Commodore pricing seems to be very similar!!

The Fg was announced in Feb 2008, so it has only been on sale around 18 months.

In many cases it's also not how much the new car costs but rather the change-over price when trading in your current car. As a matter of interest has anybody been quoted change-over on say an SV6 or XR6 with their current car. I'd almost bet that the Holden dealer is offering more for your trade-in and hence you're getting a smaller change-over price at the moment.

[g220ba]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Great news for Holden with the Cruze with no hatch and the Commodore being 4 years old.

Disraceful numbers for Ford, Falcon ute should be selling 2000 a month with its massive emphasis on fleet. Falcon sedan should be selling a lot more with its low profit rental sales. There is no way whatsoever there will be a standalong Falcon model next time round. It will be combined with Taurus.

We already know the falcon will not be a stand alone product and will built on a global platform of some sort. Your comment on it being combined with the taurus is getting very old very fast. All the news coming from ford both in this country and from michigan has been pretty positive for the retention of a RWD falcon.

To say the ute should be selling 2000 a month is nothing short of ridiculous. Firstly i doubt at the moment ford are making that many a month. Secondly its only real competitor only sold about 1200 last month.

To say disgraceful numbers is interesting, while they're not great it's not a disaster. It's been pretty consistant for a while now with a pretty steady market share. There is always room for improvement and i'm sure ford are looking at ways to improve mainly with new vehicles coming next year. The main criticism would have to be the dealer network and its poor customer service record. It takes time for a company to build a reputation such as Toyota has or a following such as Holden.

[Gobes32]

Interesting that everybody assumes that Falcon will become Taurus, is there any reasoning behind this? I have always assumed that Mondeo and Taurus will share a chassis and have different top hats, but I really do think that Falcon will merge with Mustang. Ford US engineers have a lot of respect for Ford OZ engineers and what they have achieved with the control blade system. The sticking point is that Americans love their Mustangs with live rear axles....... Sigh.

[Fordman]

Originally Posted by prydey

all those worried about the 'numbers', is it because you are losing the arguments down at the pub or in the school playground?

winning the sales numbers seems overly important to some

No sales no Ford Australia.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Great news for Holden with the Cruze with no hatch and the Commodore being 4 years old.

Really for a manufacturing plant running two shifts I don't think their sales numbers in Oz are all that great. You would hope their exports are making them money.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Really for a manufacturing plant running two shifts I don't think their sales numbers in Oz are all that great. You would hope their exports are making them money.

Especially considering that most months Ford are selling more locally built vehicles and only running one shift.........

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Fordman

No sales no Ford Australia.

they are selling cars and making money! 2500 units is about their average. you can't expect to keep selling in volumes similar to years gone by when there is so much more choice on the market. you also can't compare it to commodore. they could re release the vn and still sell plenty.