Why was fuel in the past better quality?

[Bearman]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

How do you tell if fuel has gone off? Started an FG turbo that had been sitting 9 months with a full tank and it still boosted and ran like it had a fresh batch of fuel

I'm not sure you can in a modern car which is equipped with computers, sensors etc so are programmed to automatically compensate for differences in fuel quality. You may notice a slight loss of power but, unless the fuel has turned to vinegar, the change will be subtle.

Old school cars, especially with modified motors are much more sensitive to this. If I get a bad batch in the coupe the main symptoms are it'll run a bit rough, maybe ping or just be down on power. I might experience all 3.

There are a lot of variables in fuel quality these days. I run the coupe only on BP Ultimate and fill up only at high turnover servos.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by Bearman

There are a lot of variables in fuel quality these days. I run the coupe only on BP Ultimate and fill up only at high turnover servos.

Yep I'm the same as you, BP premium is by far the best fuel, I have tried premiums from every other servo and they just seem like normal fuel, I get the same economy and really don't notice any performance gain, with BP fuels I do notice the difference.

[mik]

I remember reading that the reason we have unleaded is less to do with health and safety and more about it is what the oil companies made the most profit from, why else would they give ua a fuel that is a known carcinogen ?
oil companies say jump .....govco says how high sirs.
Ethanol as we already know is not good for older cars unless they are built for it, causing deteriorating fuel line/parts., also has different properties causing engine tune issues for some cars.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

40 or 50 years ago, they could pick and chose what oils were bought to the surface, they chose what ones served the purpose best.

We all hear now that they are producing more oil than ever before, but the fact is that true crude oil production has not increased since 2005. Instead they are starting to produce "oils" from whatever they can to keep up with demand. It would be rare that many different types arent blended somewhere along the supply chain. You've got canadians making oil from tar sands, americans getting oil from shale which at times is no better in energy than gas, and we now even have the saudis resorting to producing oil that no other country wants to refine (they had to build a special refinery just for it).

They are basically starting to produce oil from sources that they wouldnt touch many years ago, the dregs of the oil world.

There are mainly two diffrent oils that come out of the ground, thin and thick and some have more suphur than others.
Thin oil is better for making petrol but not engine oil.
We hear in aus have mainly thin oil under the ground.

As far as better fuel goes leaded petrol was better health wise as a fuel but could not be used with cats and that's the main problem with it and unleaded is far worse for your health, you can't be posioned by breathing in the lead in fuel but unleaded you can get very sick directly and don't wash your hands in unleaded it's that bad as it has deadly stuff in it that can get into your blood but leaded and E10 is not as bad to was your hands in.
Leaded as far as a engine goes leaves deposits on pistons chambers and plugs unleaded is much better in that regard anyday.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

How do you tell if fuel has gone off? Started an FG turbo that had been sitting 9 months with a full tank and it still boosted and ran like it had a fresh batch of fuel

I have a turbo European car that sits for extended lengths of time. In fact, I think it hasn't been totally 'filled up' in 18 months.

When I do take it for a spin I first go to the servo and fill a jerry can with the highest octane fuel I can get, then add an octane booster to that, then add that to the tank and leave it to sit for a while while I shake the back end to mix it all around.

Starts first time and seems to go 'ok'.... I baby it along till the pipes get the fresher fuel through then give it a bit of a squirt....

Drive it around for a bit to 'keep it going' and when I return there is 4-5 litres gone from the tank ready for the next time I decide to take it out and repeat the process with the jerry can once again.

Actually... now that I got some free time I should jump her and take her for a spin. Perhaps tomorrow

I used to be a member of a car club and a guy had a car sitting for ages (years??) before a restoration, then spent big on body and mechanical only to neglect the stale fuel. First time it ran was a track day and the motor blew because what it was ingesting certainly wasn't anything that resembled 'fuel'...

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

.....a guy had a car sitting for ages (years??) before a restoration, then spent big on body and mechanical only to neglect the stale fuel. First time it ran was a track day and the motor blew because what it was ingesting certainly wasn't anything that resembled 'fuel'...

Bangs head on door frame until forehead bleeds then bangs again.
What a dill and more so as it was a resto that the owner knew enough to track it but not to check something critical like a fluid.

[Jastel]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Chemical Additives? Loss of "Goodness"?
Are we talking about petrol or bottled OJ?

For starters, most of the misinformation about fuel going off is perpetuated by manufacturers of fuel additives sold to stop this happening. (Surprise surprise.)

Basic petrol is a dirty hodgepodge of compounds, from different parts of the refining process, and will vary depending on the crude oil composition and the refinery. Additives are used to meet RON requirements, slow oxidization, scavenge metal salts, etc, etc. High end fuels also tend to have additives designed to keep injectors clean, and limit carbon build-up.

Over time, 4 main things can happen to fuel:
Biological contamination. This is a big problem with Diesel, but can also affect petrol.
Evaporation. The most volatile aromatics will go first.
Reaction. Since petrol is a blend, with additives, over time some reaction can occur between the various compounds, and even with metals.
Oxidation. Continued exposure to air can cause some of the compounds to dry and thicken, becoming gummy. These give rise to the stinky varnish smell, and are woeful for gumming up jets and injectors.

That said, modern fuels are on the whole much better, particularly the antioxidant and detergent additives. Whilst they in turn deteriorate faster than the base petrol, it is still better than untreated fuel.

I'm talking about petrol.

Volatile aromatics is probably the "good stuff" I was referring to and couldn't remember at midnight....
The crud that's left wont run your car properly, that's for sure.

I don't use ANY additives...ever

I have been told (not actually done) that to store petrol for long periods in cars/boats/mowers etc it is good idea to put in some two stroke oil and it wont go off as badly.

[FORRD]

New to the site recon it's great so much info,,, hope I can add to that in the future to repay the favour......

Not a fuel expert fella's but just like my lawn mower I start my car's regularly and never had a problem touch wood,,,,no additives just add juice and keep the tank's around half full,,,May be wrong but I think most of the issues is letting the small amount in the carboy sit and turn to crap...

Cheers

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

How do you tell if fuel has gone off? Started an FG turbo that had been sitting 9 months with a full tank and it still boosted and ran like it had a fresh batch of fuel

It's oxygen that causes fuel to go bad. Filling the tank minimises oxygen and allows the fuel to last quite a while.

Bad fuel is noticeable by - Engine hard to start; at first cranking times are longer before firing. Smell; off fuel gives off a distinctive foul odour. Extreme cases; a varnish like deposit coats everything - fuel lines, pump, injectors.

Normally noticeable on duel fuel vehicles that have near empty petrol tanks for 3 months or longer.

[hedgehobb]

Because it was less than a pineapple to fill a tank
/nostalgia

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by irish2

You are almost not as old as my mobile. How do you even know what smog was in the past?

I said it probably isn't as bad as it was back then.

Meaning I didn't see it because I wasn't around?

I don't need to be around in the 70s/80s to realise the problem would have been worse in our capital city when cars didn't have emissions regulations and technology was basic compared to what it is today lol.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by blockhead83

Regardless of where the crude oil came from it still has to meet the same spec once it's refined and if anything specs have tightened in regards to quality.

You are right, there are alot of specs for petrol and deisel to meet. Some of those specs are colour, vapourability, appearance etc etc. As far as I know, there is not one spec on the power to weight (litre) ratio or BTU (litre). These specs may be set by the petrol companies, but they would obviously be diluted over time. The refining process tends to take stuff out (although they do add some stuff), thus they are refining what they start with, and what they are starting with has deteriorated in the last few decades.

[Davehoos]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I been worse in our capital city when cars didn't have emissions regulations and technology was basic compared to what it is today lol.

The emission regulation came in to stop future risk of pollution as the population grew. The photo chemical smog in Sydney was bad when I was a boy BUT it probably had more to do with industry-back yard rubbish burning and lawn mowers.

I travelled to Sydney from BHP Newcastle through the 70's and nothing like los angles in the 80's.

That not the same pollution related to lead and diesel dust you get in suburb houses lined up along open streets before sound deflection and motorways.

[Davehoos]

When I was a boy-the local fuel was transferred around outside of large centers around in drums and the quality was variable.

By the end of the 70's I was eaning money fixing and cleaning carby and decoking heads directly created from the technology of the time.

But the cars ran on questionable fuel. heavy machinery ran on what you could find. didn't say they did it well but as it was cheep---

Its a good thing that engines are better now-but it would be nice if they could be made to cope with dodgy fuel much better than had done in the recent past.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by mik

I remember reading that the reason we have unleaded is less to do with health and safety and more about it is what the oil companies made the most profit from

So far from the truth, Federal government legislated the end of lead being added to petrol, same as banning lead from paint for health reasons only, nothing to do with petroleum companies as adding lead is a cheaper option for them in production.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Davehoos

When I was a boy-the local fuel was transferred around outside of large centers around in drums and the quality was variable.

By the end of the 70's I was eaning money fixing and cleaning carby and decoking heads directly created from the technology of the time.

But the cars ran on questionable fuel. heavy machinery ran on what you could find. didn't say they did it well but as it was cheep---

Its a good thing that engines are better now-but it would be nice if they could be made to cope with dodgy fuel much better than had done in the recent past.

I think that most manufacturers have improve engine technology "to cope with dodgy fuel". Improved and modified fuel tanks, lines, plastics, pumps, etc. There are now knock sensors, O2 sensors, air flow and temperature sensors to monitor and adjust ignition timing, etc. Some vehicles are designed to run on anything from standard ULP all the way to E85.

A well maintained machine will hardly give a problem. Most users do not realise that fuel has a use by date, or that the fuel pump is in the tank and requires a decent level of fuel to keep cool. They run their cars tank to the last litre, cooking the fuel and overheating the pump. They run duel fuel, driving on LPG 90% of the time with just enough unleaded in the tank to cook, shake and brew while they drive around.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Davehoos

The emission regulation came in to stop future risk of pollution as the population grew. The photo chemical smog in Sydney was bad when I was a boy BUT it probably had more to do with industry-back yard rubbish burning and lawn mowers.

I travelled to Sydney from BHP Newcastle through the 70's and nothing like los angles in the 80's.

That not the same pollution related to lead and diesel dust you get in suburb houses lined up along open streets before sound deflection and motorways.

Emission regulations including catalytic convertors where introduced in the USA first, to combat the smog that was choking their cities. Most notably California. A noticeable improvement was record within several years.

Unleaded fuel was only one of many changes brought in, and was required for the Catalytic Convertors. I think that the first change was the Positive Crankcase Ventilation valve, doing away with a pipe coming out the rocker cover and pointing down to the road.

Australia was just following other nations, and we were way behind. Missing out on some great engines.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc...9/gen99615.htm

1) Lead is extremely toxic, and causes mental retardation in children. Lead oxide from car exhaust accumulates in soil near roads, and children can get it on their hands from playing outside. They then ingest it, and it causes its damage.

2) Leaded gasoline ruins automobile catalytic converters. As a result of these two problems, lead in gasoline has been banned in the U.S. Other additives, such as methyl-tert-butyl ether (which is about to be banned), had to be used to improve gasoline's octane rating.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by irish2

Superior at saving fuel at low revvs mainly. A lot of top sports bikes only went to EFI in the early 2000's. No power gains were made, in fact some even dropped in peak power. They increased the fuel mileage slightly.

I have been told that carb'ed engines actually increase rev's quicker from down lower in the rev range because carbs react quicker to throttle demand.

I still think EFI is the way to go tho because it can measure fuel loads much better and maybe even save some?.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by mik

I remember reading that the reason we have unleaded is less to do with health and safety and more about it is what the oil companies made the most profit from,

we have unleaded because lead contaminates catalytic convertors.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by EF_6

I have been told that carb'ed engines actually increase rev's quicker from down lower in the rev range because carbs react quicker to throttle demand.

Basically, no they don't. ON their own, they are slower to respond which is why accelerator pumps are fitted for increases, and slow-closers for when you back off suddenly.
Theoretically, multiple well-adjusted carbies will get very close to EFI, but like anything computers simply do it far more accurately.

[TRAU BLAU]

How come big 4X Diesels with worn engines can spew out clouds of black smoke.Have diesels got an effective cat.con.that should cut out the pollution.Undercover car-parks are a health hazard when they idle with air-conditioner on for 1/2 hour.Should be a law against it!

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Denny

How come big 4X Diesels with worn engines can spew out clouds of black smoke.Have diesels got an effective cat.con.that should cut out the pollution.Undercover car-parks are a health hazard when they idle with air-conditioner on for 1/2 hour.Should be a law against it!

Diesel engines are a compression-ignition engine using heat of compression to initiate ignition of fuel. Due to this, some, don't burn all the fuel in certain circumstances. Worn injectors, pumps & low compression also cause problems.

All vehicle exhausts are not good for us, diesel has been proven to be worse. Hence the introduction of tougher emission laws for diesel.

I hate when there's one in front & cant be passed.

[Itsme]

Deleted

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by Denny

How come big 4X Diesels with worn engines can spew out clouds of black smoke.Have diesels got an effective cat.con.that should cut out the pollution.Undercover car-parks are a health hazard when they idle with air-conditioner on for 1/2 hour.Should be a law against it!

This is why most deisels now run 'diesel particulate filters' in the exhaust system which are sort of like a cat convertor but for diesels.

[Davehoos]

Depends on what expert you talk to.

years ago diesel was seen as saving the world from oil use-NOX -and photo chemical smog. so it was then decided that particulate emission was worse.
But is it? or is electric systems need all the help they can.

I don't have a university degree so I cant offer the opinion that particulate emision are an issue for a diesel idling in underground car parks.

Diesels engines also run catalyst convertors. More common in Australia at this time as hydrocarbon and oxides of nitrogen are more of a health worry that dust.

Partical filters or scrubbers have been around for years. Lot of people complain about the smell and the smoke don't understand that its the DPF self cleaning.

4X blowing black smoke--we all know that its not because of worn rings and injectors-like a quiet harley-Its just that the operators don't believe in the opinions offered by those in our employment that cant decide on what is fact or opinion. We all know dozens of people that have had the $5000 threat-does anyone know someone that actually had to pay it?

claimed that fuel in the 1930's was bad.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Denny

How come big 4X Diesels with worn engines can spew out clouds of black smoke.Have diesels got an effective cat.con.that should cut out the pollution.Undercover car-parks are a health hazard when they idle with air-conditioner on for 1/2 hour.Should be a law against it!

I can't even get my LV TDCI to blow out a cloud of black smoke when I boot it, at 100% throttle it'll blow a little cloud of soot but not the big black cloud like the old school mechanically injected diesel can do.

I'm pretty sure to roll coal with a diesel you need lots and lots of unburnt fuel, it just goes out the exhaust as a massive cloud of black smoke.

[whynot]

No. Modern fuels are produced to a tighter quality standard and have significant health and environmental benefits over older fuels, whilst maintaining required combustion properties.

Today, refineries produce fuels with significantly lower levels of sulphur and benzenes (and that is even before we start talking about the removal of lead). In more recent times (mid-2000), national legislation has seen a reduction of sulphur from 500 ppm to 50 ppm. Benzene levels in petrol have reduced from around 5% to below 1%.

Benzene is a particularly nasty carcinogen (causes cancer).

The next step is to reduce sulphur in diesel below 10 ppm (in Europe diesel fuels with sulphur lower than 3ppm is on sale).

Of course, the real, original, “old petrol”, better known as white gasoline, only had an octane rating around 30 - 50.

[Franco Cozzo]

This is what unleaded does after sitting there for 11 years lol:



It turns into this brown crap and it reeks.

[66XR8]

10 ppm sulphur diesel has been around for 5 or 6 years

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

This is what unleaded does after sitting there for 11 years lol:

image

It turns into this brown crap and it reeks.

Not surprised, after all petrol comes from brown/black sludge