all modified car owners.......tell me what u think

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

My mistake, I was trying to convay that this was reliant on the car being registered and insured in the name of the P-Plate driver.

The end result is still the same though isnt it...

[SM1DY]

That's true, yet most car are dangerous in the wrong hands and can be potentially deadly. This in no way means that the driver is immune from the repercussions of their actions.

This, for the time being at least, is only a proposed theory and obviously could use some fine tuning. But the fact of the matter is that, car enthuasists are different to hoons and i think there should be is a course of action that a P-Plater can take to have the right to drive a higher-powered car.

[fpbabe]

yes, i love how people with modified cars are hoons. we love cars so much that we spend stax of money modifying them and keeping them in peak condition, paying the insurance for those mods, spending plenty on the petrol to run the 6s & 8s, and then for some reason we apparantly love driving them with such disrespect that we end up wrapping them around trees. makes perfect sense.
i have to admit i've hardly seen any well modified performance cars in "hoon" accidents. in my experience most "hoon" cars appear to be pieces of which the owner has paid 1g for and then go joy riding in until their pulled over or crash, or their middle aged men in brand spankers who want to show off but unfortunately don't have a clue how to drive lol
it comes down to experience, how well you know your car, how well you know the road rules, and having respect for the safety of yourself and others. my boyfriend could have driven his xr6t when he was 20 and would've been a better driver than some people i've seen driving in their 30s and 40s. as for P-platers, yes, they can act like idiots, but as far as near misses on the road, less than 10% make up what i've seen, but thats just me

[colossus]

I agree with the OP that car owners need a better voice - it used to be organisations like the NRMA that gave us that voice but all they want to talk about nowadays is "petrol prices" and they have also jumped on the government speed bandwagon as well (check the letters section of their magazine - this is a motoring organisations magazine and they publish letters from old codgers about people doing 5 kays over and big bad V8's ect.)

I have voiced my disaproval at the NRMA in writing several times asking why they follow the speed kills mantra and why they dont stick up for modified car owners - I believe the last responce I got back was "thank you for your interesting views" or something to that effect.

[ltd_on20s]

not just that, but i think uniform road rules/ and uniform driver training across australia would also have a good effect on stats.

[Tuddy200]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I think the problem is more the lack of maturity than just experience.....
I have no problem accepting any licensed driver could safely navigate a high powered car around without issue if properly supervised, restrained or just driven sensibly, the problem comes when temptation over rides common sense....

I agree with that statment.

However, as I keep saying in these threads, that I don't see how just because you turn 21 (or off your P's earlier in some states.) this temptation just disappears and your allowed to then drive a V8.

Driving my BA XR6 around for three years isn't teaching me anything but how to handle my car, not teaching me about driving in "any" car no more. So I get into a BF GT and suddenly most of the handling and power charistics go out the window and I'm back to square one again.

If most people had their way, the amount of time on your P plates would increase yearly until suddenly your always displaying them until your funeral.

The comment was made I think by 4V about some V8 driver going into people because he gave the right foot a squirt, could probably do it easier in the V8, but couldn't you still do it fairly easy in a little 4cyl Excel that is front wheel drive.

Defensive Driving Courses should have to be done before getting your P's. However, it's not going to solve the maturity problem, however, the Driving Course will I believe contribute a lot to the driving standards of this country.

[TZENU]

We could force younger drivers to take as many defensive driving courses, until we are blue in the face. Fact of the matter is, unless their ATTITUDE changes (as 4v was implying),the courses will probably only further add to their confidence and cockyness of having the ability to control the car..

Its a real shame that a small minority wreck havoc for not only the rest of the P-Platers but also the vast majority of enthusiasts and so we (as in, the enthusiasts) cop the brunt of speed/drag related fatalities and as such are branded as "hoons", according to our friends in the media.
Absolutely love it; if you can hear the car idling at the lights from inside another car then you must be hoon.

[SM1DY]

Everything that has been said is a valid point, but unless there is a realistic alternative we are just going to see more and more resrictions enforce on P-Plate drivers. P-Platers want the privledge to drive Hi-Po cars yet the state governments aren't willing to compromise. The questions is, whether or not there is a viable solutions that will satify all parties involved, or is preaching to the governments a wasted cause?

[svo347]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

etc etc. if harold scruby can have a voice and he doesnt knwo what he is talking about half the time, why cant we?

Why not just ask him... AFAIK he is a member here. KeepLeft if memory serves me right

[GTpilot]

Great thread, but this clowns comments in the article pretty much sum up the whole mentality of this.

Car-crash survivor Chris Hewson, 60, from Denmark, was also pleased with the ban plan.
He was involved in a horror accident in 1984 which nearly took his life.

He said the bans should be introduced as soon as possible.

"A 17-year-old drunk, driving a stolen car with a 14-year-old passenger, hit me head-on,'' Mr Hewson said.

"The 14-year-old died at the scene and four days later the driver died.''

"I spent three years in and out of hospital.''

How can he for one moment think that these proposed/new laws would have had any impact on the situation that happened to him. I note that it does not say the stolen car was a "high powered vehicle". Probably was a suzuki mighty boy. either way I dare say it would not have changed much. the guy was drunk and STOLE the car.

[ArTeesT]

This kind of stuff makes me mad.
I got my licence on my 17th birthday and my first car was an stock standard eb 6cyl manual. My second car was a Holden WB 308 V8.

My 6cyl EB was ALOT more powerful than my V8, I could fry the tyres on the EB like no tomorrow. It didnt have LSD which a performance car would have and had standard brakes. The EB was alot more UNSAFE than if i was driving an EB XR8 that had the LSD and bigger brakes. Now I have never had a crash. I have had a few speeding fines but nothing more excessive as 10km over the speed limit in 6 years.

What gets to me is the fact the government is wasting time on something that isnt going to save any extra lives or really help anyone.

They need to change there campaign.

I really dont understand why they dont put there efforts and money into more intensive driver training during the time they are getting there licence.

How many P platers or all drivers for that fact have acctualy done any advanced driving courses.

I have done a few and ill telll ya what, You get in there cars and loose control at 80kms and it scares the @#$# out of you enough that you wouldnt dare want something like that to happen on the roads.
It also shows young people how to get out of situations that through either there fault or someone else they are likely to encounter at some stage during there driving life.

"Hoons" are bad drivers. "Hoons" are not everyone that drives a "high performance" car or "modified" car.

Lets try stop those bad driving habits with good driver training.

[schnoods]

Fact of the matter is we are all moving on. Its now 2008, most v8's now have 100 more kw than 10 years ago, 10 year old cars only need light modifications to get them up to todays standards and a inexperienced driver can "potentially" either get into a bit of trouble on a wet road, etc.

Education is one thing, all the driver training can make a driver better but also more careless as he has in the back of his mind that "extra" skill. I wouldnt push for it, but i do think there should be a period where you have to earn the right to drive high powered car, 2 years on p plates is fine. But taking peoples pride and joy is not on.

[ArTeesT]

Originally Posted by schnoods

Fact of the matter is we are all moving on. Its now 2008, most v8's now have 100 more kw than 10 years ago, 10 year old cars only need light modifications to get them up to todays standards and a inexperienced driver can "potentially" either get into a bit of trouble on a wet road, etc.

inexperienced driver can yes definantly. Lets say ive been driving on the roads for 10 years in my standard camry or whatever. I buy my first V8 or high performance car. In wet roads or bad condition or whatever there isnt going to be a great difference in "experience" between the person thats been on the road for 10 years or the person thats been on the road for 1 and just brought the car, if something was to go wrong.
Neither of them will be used to the car in that situation or would have had any kind of training or whatever to fall back on.

What im saying is If that driver of 1 year had training and was in that situation when something goes bad, I reckon he would have a better chance of getting out of it without hurting himself or others then the guy thats been on the road for 10 years.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

Everything that has been said is a valid point, but unless there is a realistic alternative we are just going to see more and more resrictions enforce on P-Plate drivers. P-Platers want the privledge to drive Hi-Po cars yet the state governments aren't willing to compromise. The questions is, whether or not there is a viable solutions that will satify all parties involved, or is preaching to the governments a wasted cause?

Why is it such a big deal to just drive by the restrictions till you're fully licenced? If you want to complain to someone about the restrictions target all the morons who keep giving young drivers a bad name by wrapping themselves around poles etc... they're the reason why these restrictions are in and getting tighter.. they more they screw up, the harder its going to get. Blame them.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ArTeesT

inexperienced driver can yes definantly. Lets say ive been driving on the roads for 10 years in my standard camry or whatever. I buy my first V8 or high performance car. In wet roads or bad condition or whatever there isnt going to be a great difference in "experience" between the person thats been on the road for 10 years or the person thats been on the road for 1 and just brought the car, if something was to go wrong.
Neither of them will be used to the car in that situation or would have had any kind of training or whatever to fall back on.

What im saying is If that driver of 1 year had training and was in that situation I reckon he would have a better chance of getting out of it without hurting himself or others then the guy thats been on the road for 10 years.

Yes.. but in 10 years of driving your level of maturity and experience "should" have risen to the point where common sense kicks in before the ABS or traction control needs to, the whole point is NOT getting into trouble in the first place.... these kids are not having prangs by accident, they're pranging because of acts of stupidity, lack of maturity and good driver attitude is the issue..

[ArTeesT]

Yea, People are going to do stupid things regardless of whatever government or whoever does. They can restrict everyone on the road to those little 1.0l smart cars, there is always going to be someone trying to do something stoopid in them.

No one wants to get into a situation where they are about to have a crash either but it manages to happen all the time.

I just think if they have something to fall back on like defensive training there chances of surviving are higher.

anyways just my 2c

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ArTeesT

Yea, People are going to do stupid things regardless of whatever government or whoever does. They can restrict everyone on the road to those little 1.0l smart cars, there is always going to be someone trying to do something stoopid in them.

No one wants to get into a situation where they are about to have a crash either but it manages to happen all the time.

I just think if they have something to fall back on like defensive training there chances of surviving are higher.

anyways just my 2c

How often do cars just randomly run off the road or into another car for no explicable reason? barring mechanical failure id say virtually NEVER, there is always some form of driver error associated with a prang, a very large % of that driver error is either lack of attention or acts of stupidity/irresponsibility.
They shouldn't call them "accidents" because the vast majority of the time they're not.

IMO Peoples ATTITUDE to driving safely has 10000 times the impact that any defensive driver training will ever have.

[ArTeesT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

How often do cars just randomly run off the road or into another car for no explicable reason? barring mechanical failure id say virtually NEVER, there is always some form of driver error associated with a prang, a very large % of that driver error is either lack of attention or acts of stupidity/irresponsibility.
They shouldn't call them "accidents" because the vast majority of the time they're not.

IMO Peoples ATTITUDE to driving safely has 10000 times the impact that any defensive driver training will ever have.

Agree 100%

good luck changing a 17 year old's attitude. if it were only that easy

Anyways, definantly think there should be some sort of road users group.

[Stefan]

I'm going to go against the grain here and totally agree with restricting P platers in the cars they drive. And 4Vman makes the most valid point that it's not so much the driver experience that is the issue but more so maturity, better judgement.

I'm not sure how this article at all relates to modified cars. But in any case I'm all for a crack down on modified cars and would support spot checking modified cars for roadworthiness. I'll gladely let them go over my cars next time i'm out. At least it might stop some over powered, under braked, half baked performance car running into any of my properly maintaind cars due to mechanical failure.

[broken_suave]

I think defensive driving courses are a great idea, but you'd be a fool to think it would have any impact on the statistics. This is simply not the answer.

As is so often said, there is no silver bullet for this issue. There will always be idiots out there, the most we can do is try to limit the potential for a disaster.

I have felt the blow of government red tape, being slapped back down to P's after various unfortunate circumstances coincided with some rule changes. However I beleive there is still a need to nurture younger/inexperienced drivers, until they build up enough skill and maturity.

Not for all drivers but for the few that are part of the statistics.

[Bucknaked]

Restrictions for P-Platers is long overdue. Restrict them all to cars 1.8 litre or less, 4cyl only (To rule out cars such as the RX8 which is 1.3 litre 2 cyl)

While there at it, ban boot installs and neons :

[FPV+fteT3]

NSW has a 'p' plate system that lasts 3 years with all sorts of restrictions on what you can drive. I have 2 girls 15 & 17 they need to do 120hrs on "L's" to learn to drive I bought a subaru impressa all w/d antilock brakes air bags etc to try and make them safe aami who insure all my vehicles offer a safe driver course for free to my kids cause they drive my car when they get their p's. It seems aami are more concerned about young drivers than the gov.(also they dont want a claim)The subaru I think has excellent handling wet/dry not overpowered safe but I can not control what my kids do when they go out with their mates just hope they use some sense. most of us have done some crazy things in cars at some stage but it seems the new breed push it a bit too far. their attitude seems to be there are no consequences and that is societies fault As a kid every time I stuffed up yes there were consequences how many of todays kids have had a kick up the ***? not too many I bet this is why they have the dont give a rats attitude.

[MNM96]

Originally Posted by TXR

Restrictions for P-Platers is long overdue. Restrict them all to cars 1.8 litre or less, 4cyl only (To rule out cars such as the RX8 which is 1.3 litre 2 cyl)

While there at it, ban boot installs and neons :

I wonder how someone could get as many as 7500 odd post with such drivel! You must spam up real good!

[MO]

Originally Posted by MNM96

I wonder how someone could get as many as 7500 odd post with such drivel! You must spam up real good!

I'm with you...the mind boggles at such words.
Unless by some wierd train of thought by the poster its 'sarcasm'??

[philstoj]

You can restrict "P" platers till the cows come home, it wont make any difference at all. You can even call in the army, that still wont change anything... the only thing that will fix it is that thing that sits inside the hard case between your ears, but looking at things these days, hardly anyone uses it...

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by manxman

I don't mind modified cars-on the track ... not the road. Public roads are not racetracks, &

quad riders & 4WD's-who often rip up the access roads (with their doughnuts) and turn everything into corrugations and irrepairable dust bowls.

This is part of the problem ...... total prejudice. :



| [/url] |

[ltd_on20s]

i think whee the govt goes downhill is they pander to any opinion group that has a voice simply cause it brings in votes. to be honest. this might sound harsh but the govt as a whole doesnt give a rats about wether u live or die at the moment. its all about cash. they pay lip service to it cause the cops and ambos a sick of picking bits of kids up off the road, otherwise the radars would be in black spots, camera would be in intersections known to have big accidents. and the govt would be coming up with a "carrots and sticks approach to driving" eg "no fines for a year? great heres an extra demerit point" or something to entice people to look out. yes there is always that minority but again it comes back to why should we get punished as a whole for the actions of few?

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by jgb

Great thread, but this clowns comments in the article pretty much sum up the whole mentality of this.

Originally Posted by article

Car-crash survivor Chris Hewson, 60, from Denmark, was also pleased with the ban plan.
He was involved in a horror accident in 1984 which nearly took his life.
He said the bans should be introduced as soon as possible.
"A 17-year-old drunk, driving a stolen car with a 14-year-old passenger, hit me head-on,'' Mr Hewson said.
"The 14-year-old died at the scene and four days later the driver died.''
"I spent three years in and out of hospital.''

Originally Posted by jgb

How can he for one moment think that these proposed/new laws would have had any impact on the situation that happened to him. I note that it does not say the stolen car was a "high powered vehicle". Probably was a suzuki mighty boy. either way I dare say it would not have changed much. the guy was drunk and STOLE the car.

The other situation also draws a long bow

Originally Posted by article

THE mother of 14-year-old Hayley Cusato, who was killed in a high-speed drag race two years ago, will be one of the many West Australians elated by a proposed ban on P-platers driving powerful cars.
Mairi Ogbourne, of Morley, made an impassioned plea to The Sunday Times three weeks ago calling for inexperienced drivers to be restricted to cars with limited horsepower.
Hayley was a passenger in a Holden Commodore driven by her boyfriend, who at the time was a 17-year-old learner driver. The car left the road and slammed into a brick wall in Morley on August 25, 2006.

A learner driver, who was drag racing - and highly likely to be doing so without a licensed supervising driver.
So the common thread here is that drivers were doing a couple of highly illegal acts and they think a car restriction is going to stop a drunk, under-aged, joy-rider?

and this gem

Originally Posted by article

"And ordinary people do not want to be terrorised by hoons. Some of these accidents have come ploughing into people's houses.''

Usually when I hear of a car ploughing into a house, it's some elderly driver who has mixed up the throttle and brake.

I do agree with the principle of restricting high powered vehicles, but as with the NSW and Victorian systems, the vehicle restrictions are too simplistic and allow some potent vehicles and ban more sedate vehicles. At least a power/weight and/or capacity/weight system was fairer. The "experts" have introduced a system that bans you from driving an older V8 - like a 253 Holden V8 - that is less potent than a Camry, which gets the thumbs up, but allows you to drive a modern 6 cylinder with more power than a classic with a 351 V8 in it.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Why is it such a big deal to just drive by the restrictions till you're fully licenced?

Maybe because the goal posts keep getting moved and the problem remains. We have alot of regular people saying these restrictions won't work - driver training is more effective, but that would mean SPENDING money on something that will improve the drivers for years to come, but instead they make money by imposing more penalties and selling offender's cars. When the driver is fully licensed, the problems still exist - drivers are under-trained. And WHEN, not IF the accidents continue unabated with P-platers in lower powered cars, or cars that are still potent but not banned it will show the government's new system was all smoke and mirrors to begin with.

I remember when my eldest sisters got their licenses. The first one was on P-plates for 1 year, the second 2 years, my third sister and myself 3 years. So I could sit here and say how P-platers should cop it on the chin like we had to, but that is BS. More and more restrictions are slapped on, penalising the soon to be drivers who haven't done anything wrong, yet a minority who won't even obey the basic laws that we all agree on - such as DUI, excessive speed, and unlicensed driving will continue doing so, whether it is in an "acceptable" car, a restricted car driven illegally, or a stolen car. If they won't follow existing rules, what chance is there of them following these additional ones?

[Supercharged]

Originally Posted by auslandau

I agree with that ..... but I read it as:
P platers that drive V8's, or modified cars are ALL hoons and need them confiscated and sold!

Its the flow on that effects many that's starting to really get to me. Those who drives modified, loud, cars that are being branded as hoons. If you drive a V8, you must be a hoon. Why else would you drive one! Its a perseption that is being pushed hard at them moment ..... and is very one sided. Sometimes I'll give it a squirt but most of the time I really do behave impeccably

Boy I hate that word 'Hoon'. Its getting thrown around way too much at the moment

Think about it this way, Son buys a VP clubsport, dad has a 195KW V6 VE Commondore, dads car is faster, age of VP and all that. The boy driving the VP will be considered a hoon but not if driving dads VE

[Keepleft]

ltd_on20s wrote:- if harold scruby can have a voice and he doesnt know what he is talking about half the time, why cant we?

Originally Posted by svo347

Why not just ask him... AFAIK he is a member here. KeepLeft if memory serves me right

I am not Harold Scruby because;
1. I was not on a crusade to ban 4WD bull bars outright, nor
2. did I seek to ban or restrict 4WD's from CBD's, or
3. attempt change of the national flag via AUSFLAG, and
4. defended NT's use of speed derestriction signs on its rural highways:-)

(I would also overturn in NSW the radar & laser device prohibition, restrict certain crush and confiscate regulation, eliminate certain category 'exceed speed-limit fines' in favour of $10 fines for using too much fuel, etc).

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

not just that, but i think uniform road rules/ and uniform driver training across australia would also have a good effect on stats.

Note:
a) Australian Road Rules. The 'national harmonisation' of road rules* in serious effort, was kicked off by Keating back in 1993, with the first edition ARR's contracted by the states December 1, 1999. Also required owing our ongoing contract with the UN Convention on Road Traffic.

b) Development of the Graduated Licensing Systems by the states and territories, each with very familiar 'likeness and requirement' as that derived from NSW, and is now developing nationally by actions undertaken in Canberra December 15, 2004 at the "The National Driver Training Scheme" launch.

* Speed-limit maximums remain a matter for each state and territory, though some academics like to attempt restriction of this. Speed signage used, must of course, be uniform.