HSV Confirms Dual Fuel... - Page 2

G6ET8U · 27-12-2009, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Noise

You do realise that in Melbourne, BP fuel is supplied by Mobil.

It may well be the case mate... but I can only speak on behalf of myself. I haven't changed my driving habits one bit in the last 12 months for the purpose of this excercise... yet in the last month after switching from BP to Mobil and don't think I did it because of money or trying to get better fuel economy. I did it because it is cheaper on Sydney Road than the equivalent BP. It may only be around 2c a litre on a Tuesday but for me to provide NO effort to save 2c a litre I am prepared to do it.

It has also provided me with a .3L per 100k's saving.

I'm not in to driving around to try and save fuel, I don't have the time. I work out that my personal time, be it driving to and from work or my own time on the weekend is worth $100 a hour. If it costs me more than that to get around to try and save money then to me it isn't worth it.

I suggest you do the same and you will start to have a different view on the world.

FPV+fteT3 · 27-12-2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Well at the same sevo Autogas was 79c/l.

It does not really matter. If you are of the "must save money" mindset you are quite unlikely to buy a new HSV or FPV as both are quite expensive and depreciate at a huge rate. You are far more likely to buy secondhand or if new then the more basic, lower end model.

Two points:

1) All of my FPVs and my Z have had the load pedal on the floor almost daily as have most of the "performance" vehicles owned by everyone I know.
2) Your ute is not a FPV or HSV it is a Falcon.

I agree with flappist when you buy a FPV or HSV fuel economy is not a priority neither is the price per litre of the fuel 98 could be $2/L and I would still fill the car. It's the price you pay for your hobby, passion call it what you will.

G6ET8U · 27-12-2009, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

I agree with flappist when you buy a FPV or HSV fuel economy is not a priority neither is the price per litre of the fuel 98 could be $2/L and I would still fill the car. It's the price you pay for your hobby, passion call it what you will.

Exactly.

People don't buy HSV's or FPV's because they are confused about the price the fuel.

prydey · 27-12-2009, 08:41 PM

liquid injection can honestly be seen as a performance modification! rumour has it the next gen egas falcon has to be de-tuned so it doesn't embarrass the petrol version.

gtfpv - my mixer egas falcon is no more than 30% worse than petrol. i'm yet to hear of any liquid system that returns worse than 15% on a falcon.

gtfpv · 27-12-2009, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

Sorry fixed the lacking info in my post

going off 19 petrol and 22 gas . roughly 15.8% loss . not too bad .
if lpg costs 60c litre . it would be the same as paying 69.5c litre for petrol .

Chopped · 27-12-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

....I bought it because it is EASILY the best car in class.......

Totally agree with you.

The point I was making was in reference to your statement that the G6ET is better in every way (which it is not).

I can see where you are coming from if you mean it is a great stealth performance car for the street. No cops looking at you, no bogans trying to race you etc. Also it has a great interior (nice place to be) so overall an excellent car in that regard. Plenty on the road too.

I'm just saying the FPV/HSV do offer more in regards to all round performance, especially at the track. (so they should, they cost more!)

snappy · 27-12-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

I agree with flappist when you buy a FPV or HSV fuel economy is not a priority neither is the price per litre of the fuel 98 could be $2/L and I would still fill the car. It's the price you pay for your hobby, passion call it what you will.

But whats there to be passionate about filling it with fuel or gas one pushh one twist, Me personally i couldn't care if it ran of a bag of frozen peas.

Just incase i think im going mad

Hypothetically
there a two gt's sitting at the dealer. (1 petrol 1 gas )

Gas
320kw
1/4 time = 13sec
An cost you $9 dollars every 100k (15/100k at 60c)

Petrol
315kw
1/4 time = 13.05
An cost you $15.60 every 100k (13/100k at $1.20)

You would still chose the petrol because it your passion . Is this correct ?

**Falcon Coupe** · 27-12-2009, 09:08 PM

I don't understand why those not wanting LPG get their knickers in a knot when the subject arises. As long as petrol models are sold along side it's a non issue.

FPV+fteT3 · 27-12-2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snappy84

But whats there to be passionate about filling it with fuel or gas one pushh one twist, Me personally i couldn't care if it ran of a bag of frozen peas.

Just incase i think im going mad

Hypothetically
there a two gt's sitting at the dealer. (1 petrol 1 gas )

Gas
320kw
1/4 time = 13sec
An cost you $9 dollars every 100k (15/100k at 60c)

Petrol
315kw
1/4 time = 13.05
An cost you $15.60 every 100k (13/100k at $1.20)

You would still chose the petrol because it your passion . Is this correct ?

Good argument but you miss my point FPV does not offer a factory fitted gas when I bought mine like I dare say most HSV and FPV buyers do I couldn't give a toss about fuel economy or what it would cost to run and I still dont. However if a factory LPG was available and PROVEN to be better it would get consideration but only if the performance was better not so interested in what it cost to run on a daily basis. Not keen on aftermarket fitments as the motor was designed to run on petrol not gas.
By proven I mean reliability wise, engine wear wise, and repeatable power wise with factory backed warranty. I am not an expert on BBQ fuel, peas would be nice tho........

**DJM83** · 27-12-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Well at the same sevo Autogas was 79c/l.

It does not really matter. If you are of the "must save money" mindset you are quite unlikely to buy a new HSV or FPV as both are quite expensive and depreciate at a huge rate. You are far more likely to buy secondhand or if new then the more basic, lower end model.

Two points:

1) All of my FPVs and my Z have had the load pedal on the floor almost daily as have most of the "performance" vehicles owned by everyone I know.
2) Your ute is not a FPV or HSV it is a Falcon.

That mean nothing really in the context of it. Its a V8 none the less.

My opinion of it all is this (most likely to offend). If you in the market for a V8 be it FPV or HSV and want it to be cheaper to run DONT BUY IT if your worried about fuel economy.

flappist · 27-12-2009, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snappy84

But whats there to be passionate about filling it with fuel or gas one pushh one twist, Me personally i couldn't care if it ran of a bag of frozen peas.

Just incase i think im going mad

Hypothetically
there a two gt's sitting at the dealer. (1 petrol 1 gas )

Gas
320kw
1/4 time = 13sec
An cost you $9 dollars every 100k (15/100k at 60c)

Petrol
315kw
1/4 time = 13.05
An cost you $15.60 every 100k (13/100k at $1.20)

You would still chose the petrol because it your passion . Is this correct ?

Hypothetically there are 2 GTs sitting at a fuel station that is not in a large city or on the main highway.

Petrol, 315kw $1.50 a litre and available
GAS, who cares there is none.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by bush servos

LPG, sorry mate we ran out a few weeks ago. It is is not a big seller here so we don't really worry about it. The truck is due on Thursday, I think it has LPG

The GAS lovers almost all live in a city and never really go anywhere except to other cities.

People who do not spend their lives within 30 minutes of a MacDonalds drive through tend to look at fuel a bit differently.
In 2003/2004 My BA GT-P almost always had a 20l jerrycan of 98ron in the boot. It got used quite a few times......

But all arguments aside.

HSV are making a LPG car.

It will sell or it will not, the market will determine whether LPG is a good or bad product.

I am sure that there are just as many "enthusiasts" who could gave a million truly passionate reasons why a F6X or a Coupe4 or a SV6000 or a XUV or a Force 6/8 etc etc etc was going to be a huge success because the market was SCREAMING for it........

prydey · 27-12-2009, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Hypothetically there are 2 GTs sitting at a fuel station that is not in a large city or on the main highway.

Petrol, 315kw $1.50 a litre and available
GAS, who cares there is none.....

dual fuel?

Windsor220 · 27-12-2009, 09:28 PM

Well someone was going to do it. Good on HSV for giving it a go. We'll see now if it sells.

flappist · 27-12-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

dual fuel?

The argument is about the dedicated injection LPG. Dual fuel just have no room in the boot...

Which is quite possibly the real reason why the HSV are making dual fuel.
There is a "out of fuel" service available just like FPV. Bloody difficult to fill a jerrycan with LPG every time a "city person" looks up all the LPG stations along their trip only to find they are all out 500km west of woop woop.....

**Falcon Coupe** · 27-12-2009, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

The argument is about the dedicated injection LPG. Dual fuel just have no room in the boot...

.

The thread is about duel fuel so there should be no argument.

FPV+fteT3 · 27-12-2009, 10:04 PM

From a performance car point of view (HSV or FPV) dual fuel is not an option many would pick, why would you want the extra ballast 2 tanks, 2 delivery systems etc dedicated lpg maybe but dual fuel where are the golf clubs going to fit? they should be looking at ways to cut weight to increase go not make them heavier and slower and that is how potential HSV buyers will see it. Dual fuel is always a compromise the motor would be built to suit what fuel? Is a Flash tuner sold with each car? Bear in mind it is supposedly a hi-performance car and so should be tuned to go like one .........

snappy · 27-12-2009, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Hypothetically there are 2 GTs sitting at a fuel station that is not in a large city or on the main highway. Petrol, 315kw $1.50 a litre and available GAS, who cares there is none.....

Well it maybe the case , Though it a shame so many people think like you , because im guessing that why so many people in the city drive 4x4's . Because one day there going to go for a drive and there going to come to a place where people haven't invented roads yet , then that extra 10k they spent for 4wd would paid for itself .
An were there is no petrol people will just have to buy a horse and where no water is they will have to get a camel , i think you get my point.
If you live that remote it does not matter because you would be lucky to even account for 1% of the market or the voting public it tough but that's life.

snappy · 27-12-2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

From a performance car point of view (HSV or FPV) dual fuel is not an option many would pick, why would you want the extra ballast 2 tanks, 2 delivery systems etc dedicated lpg maybe but dual fuel where are the golf clubs going to fit? they should be looking at ways to cut weight to increase go not make them heavier and slower and that is how potential HSV buyers will see it. Dual fuel is always a compromise the motor would be built to suit what fuel? Is a Flash tuner sold with each car? Bear in mind it is supposedly a hi-performance car and so should be tuned to go like one .........

So it should be tuned to gas since its a higher octane

G6ET8U · 27-12-2009, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

From a performance car point of view (HSV or FPV) dual fuel is not an option many would pick, why would you want the extra ballast 2 tanks, 2 delivery systems etc dedicated lpg maybe but dual fuel where are the golf clubs going to fit? they should be looking at ways to cut weight to increase go not make them heavier and slower and that is how potential HSV buyers will see it. Dual fuel is always a compromise the motor would be built to suit what fuel? Is a Flash tuner sold with each car? Bear in mind it is supposedly a hi-performance car and so should be tuned to go like one .........

I'll be careful what I say here...

But each fuel has different values. It requires different tuning and each engine requires different characteristics to run it...

Dual Fuel is a comprimise. Not a solution.

snappy · 27-12-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

I'll be careful what I say here...

But each fuel has different values. It requires different tuning and each engine requires different characteristics to run it...

Dual Fuel is a comprimise. Not a solution.

agreed but in time technology will fix that issue if it cant allready

G6ET8U · 27-12-2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snappy84

agreed but in time technology will fix that issue if it cant allready

Yes agreed mate... but in time Climate Change will be fixed too.. if not already.

Right now it isn't and neither is this debate... even if HSV have developed a system to run both fuels.

Either way it is a compromise... and I can tell you that if I bought a HSV or an FPV right now this wouldn't be a consideration of mine as to whether it took LPG or not. Even as an add on No Cost Option I probably still wouldn't take it. I would take the diff whine before it.

snappy · 27-12-2009, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

Yes agreed mate... but in time Climate Change will be fixed too.. if not already.

Right now it isn't.

lpg can help with that to less emissions .

stick a bottle of it under al gore and light a match problem solved no more climate change :evil3:

naddis01 · 27-12-2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

The argument is about the dedicated injection LPG. Dual fuel just have no room in the boot...

Which is quite possibly the real reason why the HSV are making dual fuel.
There is a "out of fuel" service available just like FPV. Bloody difficult to fill a jerrycan with LPG every time a "city person" looks up all the LPG stations along their trip only to find they are all out 500km west of woop woop.....

Check out post #1108 in this thread. That is a GT converted to LPG. I think you can say that the space taken by the tank (86L by the way) is minor. So with a little foresight and design, the sort comings of LPG can be overcome somewhat.

By the way I live 600km west of Sydney in whoop whoop with a dedicated LPG vehicle and I have never had problems finding LPG. Never had to carry a jerrycan either when I had a petrol car.

Having said that I dont see this being a great seller simply because of the type of buyer that buys HSVs, so this is a bit of a moot argument.

naddis01 · 27-12-2009, 10:29 PM

For those that cant be bothered using the link...

G6ET8U · 27-12-2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

Check out post #1108 in this thread. That is a GT converted to LPG. I think you can say that the space taken by the tank (86L by the way) is minor. So with a little forsight and design, the sort comings of LPG can be overcome somewhat.

By the way I live 600km west of Sydney in woop woop with a dedicated LPG vehicle and I have never had problems finding LPG. Never had to carry a jerrycan either when I had a petrol car.

Having said that I dont see this being a great seller simply because of the type of buyer that buys HSVs, so this is a bit of a moot argument.

I am honestly not being argumentative now.

But my neighbour. He has an XD 351. Straight gas. Been sitting in his backyard for about a year. Has started it from time to time just to keep it going.

Now won't start. Why? No gas. No fuel either.

Where to from here? Hook up the bottle from the bbq?

ratter · 27-12-2009, 10:33 PM

Lots of incorrect information happening here, Liquid LPG will match petrol power or even better it on the same tune for petrol, the only compromise would be not extracting the last bit of power from the gas system.

Holdens/HSV have the option of dual spark tables in their programming to take full advantage of different fuels with no reflashing of computers required when changing from 1 fuel to the othe, maybe HSV could take advantage of this

naddis01 · 27-12-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

I am honestly not being argumentative now.

But my neighbour. He has an XD 351. Straight gas. Been sitting in his backyard for about a year. Has started it from time to time just to keep it going.

Now won't start. Why? No gas. No fuel either.

Where to from here? Hook up the bottle from the bbq?

How many new HSVs are going to be parked in the backyard for a year and only started from time to time?

: Hardly worthy of comparision to the topic of debate here.

ratter · 27-12-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

Where to from here? Hook up the bottle from the bbq?

Yes he could make a hose to put some gas in his tank.

But again this thread is about dual fuel so not really applicable here.

snappy · 27-12-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

I am honestly not being argumentative now.

But my neighbour. He has an XD 351. Straight gas. Been sitting in his backyard for about a year. Has started it from time to time just to keep it going.

Now won't start. Why? No gas. No fuel either.

Where to from here? Hook up the bottle from the bbq?

I say you could my mate runs his patrol of natural gas dont know what he did to do it but he loves been able to fill up from home.

prydey · 27-12-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

I'll be careful what I say here...

But each fuel has different values. It requires different tuning and each engine requires different characteristics to run it...

Dual Fuel is a comprimise. Not a solution.

the icom jtg liquid injection kit actually intercepts the signal for the petrol injectors with a conversion programmed in to suit the different gas injectors. the car never knows its running anything other than petrol and the gas injectors are calibrated to run using the same tune.

there isn't a lot of compromise going on any more.

this thread just highlights the fact that there is still a fair way to go to overcome the old school way of thinking toward lpg.