Holden's SIDI models fall short of promise - Page 2

phillyc · 06-12-2009, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

Holden's SIDI models fall short of promise
Article from: The Courier-Mail

By Mark Hinchliffe

December 04, 2009 11:00pm

Yes, you can do all the maths and physics and work out on paper how an engine, transmission, aerodynamics, weight and other factors can affect economy – but these are purely theoretical.

They make a statement on paper, but they don't mean much in the real world.

I recently drove three Holden V6 vehicles with the new 3.0 and 3.6-litre spark ignition direct injection (SIDI) engines.

I drove a grey Berlina Sportwagon (3.0L), which returned 10.5L/100km, an even greyer Calais sedan (3.6L), which yielded 10.7L/100km, and a bright-coloured Ute (3.6L), which failed all economy tests with a poor 12.3L/100km.

The result was fuel figures that seem to call Holden a liar.

I can't believe I am saying this, but I don't like the six-speed transmission.

It feels like it has an overactive thyroid gland, too willingly dropping down one or even two gears at the hint of extra throttle.

That may be great for performance, but not necessarily for economy or driver fatigue. I found it quite annoying how much the transmission jumped around, even though it is quite smooth in its changes.

There is simply no need for such volatile gear changing. After all, the small engine has 290Nm of torque and the bigger engine has 350Nm, up 30Nm from the previous engine. Surely this torque can be used to draw the car up a hill or cope with a little extra throttle without shifting gears.

Once again, in the real world SIDI fails. Hope this catches on. Another poor review for the SIDI engined VE.

The Falcon is slowly winning back market share, so I hope this the cause of the better car, the Falcon winning.

uranium_death · 06-12-2009, 09:17 PM

Wow...Holden's claims have fallen well short of reality...I would never have thought....yet people still swallow everything told...

=good marketing by Holden.

There are people out there that actually see FoA as purely American and Holden as purely Australian.

Marketing does that...

phillyc · 06-12-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

There is simply no need for such volatile gear changing. After all, the small engine has 290Nm of torque and the bigger engine has 350Nm, up 30Nm from the previous engine. Surely this torque can be used to draw the car up a hill or cope with a little extra throttle without shifting gears.

I draw particular attention to this. Because, really 290Nm is not good, but 350Nm is a decent figure. I also know that GMHolden spruiked the torque spread of the new engine.

This is what i'm questioning. I'll relate it to the cylinder head flow of a standard versus ported engine. So, with this in mind. Whilst the peak aiflow value might be high for a ported head, the air velocity might be low which affects part throttle response.

I'm wondering if the port sizes on the SIDI - Alloytech range are made large to assist with high flow and therefore peak torque and power outputs, but at the expense of lower air velocity which is required for low rpm cylinder fill particularly low throttle position.

By comparison, the equally thrashy Ecotech 3.8L had small head ports and great step off torque, but poor high rpm output.

Clearly, all this shows is the amazing job that Ford have done with the 4.0L with it's huge torque, solid power and great flexibility. Add the real world economy and it emphasises the point.

prydey · 07-12-2009, 12:58 AM

holden claim to be able to get 900+ km to a tank based on highway use. this has been proven to be true a few times now. its not an amazing feat given the inceased volume of the fuel tank but its not a lie on holdens part.

the other claims they make are based on the ADR consumption figure, which is done independantly. guess what, its not the first car in the world that doesn't seem to match its ADR figures.

merlin · 07-12-2009, 08:34 AM

I am really not impressed with any of these fuel figures being thrown around.

I drive an 80km round trip in Sydney peak hour. I average 35km/h with about 80% stop start and 20% freeway. I am constantly stuck in traffic in the CBD going nowhere yet my BF2 XR6 Turbo is averaging 11.5L/100kms.

That really is not far off all these Holden claims - especially the ute. I don't drive it softly either.

So who in their right mind would buy a 3.0L pussbox to save approx. 1 litre of fuel per 100km's? - I'm sure the non turbo FG's are alot more efficient again over my car.

mcnews · 07-12-2009, 08:35 AM

Mate of mine just got a V8 SIDI Sportswagon and reckons he gets 6 litres per 100km on the highway and even on the city gets heaps better fuel economy than he did in the Subaru Forrester he had before.

Joe5619 · 07-12-2009, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

Mate of mine just got a V8 SIDI Sportswagon and reckons he gets 6 litres per 100km on the highway and even on the city gets heaps better fuel economy than he did in the Subaru Forrester he had before.

I didn't realise the SIDI come in V8 form.. Are you sure it is a V8?

merlin · 07-12-2009, 08:48 AM

I think he meant V6

302 XC · 07-12-2009, 09:32 AM

6 litres fuel for 100klm highway driving in a v6 !!!!!LOL
wat does he do push it along highway ?????LOL
or maybe get towed ????LOL
he mite do it once in a while (maybe),but not everytime or maybe he doesnt have hills on his 100klm stretch off highway ???
ill give ya mate 6litres of fuel and really see wat he gets(commodore drivers always better than everyone else)
theres alota hills where i live (and im sure everywhere else to)fuel economy isnt the issue when your trying to get up and over hills

mcnews · 07-12-2009, 09:38 AM

Just reporting what he said mate, he is stoked with the economy compared to the Forrester.

Brazen · 07-12-2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

Mate of mine just got a V8 SIDI Sportswagon and reckons he gets 6 litres per 100km on the highway and even on the city gets heaps better fuel economy than he did in the Subaru Forrester he had before.

Yeah one of the reasons I am considering a V8 Sportwagon over a V6 is the incredibly good fuel economy of the things, well they are both good really - especially compared to 14.3L/100km I average in the Falcon.

MAD · 07-12-2009, 11:09 AM

I've heard from a few people that Subaru's are thirsty little buggers.

And on topic of torque figures. 350Nm is all they can get from all this new tech in the 3.6?
The XF had 325Nm back in 1986. The EL XR6 had 366Nm and the stock EL Gli had 357Nm.
I dont see how anyone could call 350Nm a decent figure.

Wally · 07-12-2009, 11:11 AM

Haven't Holden done a fine job.... the SIDI acronym just rolls of the tongue and into thread posts with ease. I sometimes think Ford forums are Holden's biggest viral marketers.

The Panorama test has probably been a good thing for Commodore ..... I can see the salesman now "This a is a family car built for suburban economy sir, for Bathurst we have supercars"

: Of course the man in the street rarely reads car magazines and get's his cues and reviews from his mates, who are the usual tribal 60/40 split in favour of the Commodore in a two horse race.

4Vman · 07-12-2009, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Haven't Holden done a fine job.... the SIDI acronym just rolls of the tongue and into thread posts with ease. I sometimes think Ford forums are Holden's biggest viral marketers.

The Panorama test has probably been a good thing for Commodore ..... I can see the salesman now "This a is a family car built for suburban economy sir, for Bathurst we have supercars"

: Of course the man in the street rarely reads car magazines and get's his cues and reviews from his mates, who are the usual tribal 60/40 split in favour of the Commodore in a two horse race.

Quite the opposite actually, the Bathurst test sent Holdens people into a panicked tail spin, there were urgent meetings called to "spin" up a counter story, i spoke to a friend the other day who manages a large fleet and they were very interested in that result, so much so that they're reviewing their purchase preference for their fleet and carefully evaluating 1 of each.....

Brazen · 07-12-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Quite the opposite actually, the Bathurst test sent Holdens people into a panicked tail spin, there were urgent meetings called to "spin" up a counter story, i spoke to a friend the other day who manages a large fleet and they were very interested in that result, so much so that they're reviewing their purchase preference for their fleet and carefully evaluating 1 of each.....

Do we know when the new LPG system for Ford is coming out? As that would kill the Commodore for economy whilst still giving it grunty performance.

**Bluehoon** · 07-12-2009, 11:52 AM

That bathurst test sent Holden into a huge panic, press releases instructing dealerships and reps on how to manage it were sent out.
When Ford releases the Li LPG, if the model selections are there then fleets will be hard pressed to knock it back.
Fleets are wising up to the marketing spin and making smart factual comparisons.
Mark Reuss recently got promoted to CEO of GM, things could be interesting.....
A cleverly, agressively marketed LPG campaign, coupled with the 4 banger on petrol may just nail the dunjydore...

Wally · 07-12-2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluehoon

That bathurst test sent Holden into a huge panic, press releases instructing dealerships and reps on how to manage it were sent out.
......

Which validates what I suggested?

Anyone got a copy of the dealer panic memorandums?

snappy · 07-12-2009, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Which validates what I suggested?

Anyone got a copy of the dealer panic memorandums?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...ghlight=holden

Wally · 07-12-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snappy84

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...ghlight=holden

That's a hellava long thread Snappy, can you steer me to the actual bulletin? All I've been able to find on the net is "she said he said" third party reporting of what may or may not be the truth.

Did the Age take CO2 readings of each car when testing?

snappy · 07-12-2009, 03:04 PM

all the info you really need is in post 1

All the truth you really need is nobody but holden hae been able to get there acclaimed fuel figures.
No point trying to play spin doctor for your favourite team .

Wally · 07-12-2009, 03:43 PM

So there isn't anything? My favourite team isn't Holden btw, I'm more a car enthusiast than a brand warrior, but if it's makes you feel better ..

snappy · 07-12-2009, 03:54 PM

Oh please . Ive been a member here long enough to know your a gm fanboy

As for the article , It talks about the dealer bulletin sent out at how they were going to use spin to there customers .
Where bathurst test was not real world but the try and claim that the global green challenge was.

SpoolMan · 07-12-2009, 03:59 PM

[QUOTE=Wally] can you steer me to the actual bulletin? All I've been able to find on the net is "she said he said" third party reporting of what may or may not be the truth.
QUOTE]
I suppose if this isnt true Holden would have asked them to remove the article becuase this sort of press does hurt you would think..
http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/h...1106-i0w6.html

1TUFFUTE · 07-12-2009, 06:03 PM

i just payed attention to an add for the new ford fiesta ecconetic. 3.7 per 100 thats crazy...think im gunna go get one... and by the way didnt chrysler last year try and fail with a similair sidi fuel saving scam that totally flunked...

4Vman · 07-12-2009, 06:10 PM

[QUOTE=SpoolMan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

can you steer me to the actual bulletin? All I've been able to find on the net is "she said he said" third party reporting of what may or may not be the truth.
QUOTE]
I suppose if this isnt true Holden would have asked them to remove the article becuase this sort of press does hurt you would think..
http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/h...1106-i0w6.html

If you put rose colored glasses on you can't see negative holden press articles..... which probably explains why he's never seen it...

vztrt · 07-12-2009, 06:28 PM

Was at the dealer today and they had the Bathurst test article from drive on the coffee table. Found it quite funny.

Wally · 07-12-2009, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snappy84

Oh please . Ive been a member here long enough to know your a gm fanboy

As for the article , It talks about the dealer bulletin sent out at how they were going to use spin to there customers .
Where bathurst test was not real world but the try and claim that the global green challenge was.

Hey I'm not arguing the results, nor that there was a dealer bulletin, but I'd like to see the actual article and the "panic" associated with it. I was hoping someone here had a copy that's all.

If you want to know my "fanboy" leaning, look to the north pacific.

phillyc · 07-12-2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

So there isn't anything? My favourite team isn't Holden btw, I'm more a car enthusiast than a brand warrior, but if it's makes you feel better ..

Joke of the week. Surely?!

**Falcon Coupe** · 07-12-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Hey I'm not arguing the results, nor that there was a dealer bulletin, but I'd like to see the actual article and the "panic" associated with it. I was hoping someone here had a copy that's all.

Translated too arguing for the sake of arguing.

phillyc · 07-12-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Hey I'm not arguing the results, nor that there was a dealer bulletin, but I'd like to see the actual article and the "panic" associated with it. I was hoping someone here had a copy that's all.

If you want to know my "fanboy" leaning, look to the north pacific.

In your own words. What was the result?