Supercar scare

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Blue Blooded

Don't shoot me down as I'm a massive fan of the XY's, but you have to wonder if it would have become the cult hero it is without the supercar scare, with the manufacturers due to bring out bigger and better cars (in theory). I think that that one of the reasons it's so popular is that it's the last of the era
Just sayin

you are probably right on the money. the fact it was the last ho means virtually everything when it comes to collectability and opinions

however, it did also look tough from the factory. so just like i am in love with coupes, there will be many who love the stance and outright toughness of the xy, that the xa could never have. the xa was a great car (the xb even better ), but because it was more refined than the xy, even the ho wasn't guaranteed the cult following the xy has - maybe instead of one model above all else, there might have been a couple that are at the top of the list - and if that was the case, then i think an phase 3 would still be around the top

[cs123]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

image

Didn't cars have flat folding seats back then?

I love the ads as much as anything in the old mags and papers.

[Unco]

Interesting thread. I can't help but think about the vehicles currently produced in Germany where they've had lobbying for decades to reduce the speed limit on the autobahn highways. One of the main opponents is the German car industry claiming that the reason they make high powered/high speed vehicles is because they can be driven on high speed roads to prove themselves and that without these high speed roads, the German car industry would be crippled.

Australia, unfortunately, lacked the quality of the German highways in the 1970's and also (still) lacks it today. The country is just too big.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Unco

Australia, unfortunately, lacked the quality of the German highways in the 1970's and also (still) lacks it today. The country is just too big.

true, and maybe also the australian people lack the discipline to have autobahns and the like. it seems there is no tailgating on the autobahns, no dawdling along in the fast lane, no little man complex - the guy in the escort knows he doesn't belong in the lane with the amg's and m vehicles etc. etc.

maybe the german's just have respect when driving

[Unco]

In a way, I think Australia would need to build a decent highway system first in order to appreciate the responsibility associated with high speed driving. Like I said, the country is just too big to do this.

I don't know what other countries have a system similar to the German autobahn. When we drove to Hamburg, a month ago, I thought I was going fast at 180Km/h, only to be overtaken by a merc or 5 series beemer that makes you feel like you're standing still... kind of makes you pay a bit more respect and attention to the little card called a 'driver's license'.

The guy in the escort could lose his license if he got caught holding up traffic and he could go to jail if it was proven that his slow speed driving was a partial cause to a major traffic incident, and if so, any insurance claim coming from him would be declined due to negligence.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

it seems houses were much more affordable then. i know they were much more affordable 11 years ago sure, a phase 3 was very expensive, but i don't think $200,000 is an accurate reflection in todays currency

Looking at 1972, adult average weekly earnings (in Vic) were $5,200 per annum. The Phase 4 would have been ~$5,200 or a years average earnings.

Fast Forward to 2011. Average annual earnings are stated to be $53,350-$62,660 (dependant on which sector) but a GT-P has an RRP of about $77,100 thus about 1.4 years (at worst) to 1.23 years (at best).

In relative terms it was thus cheaper back then.

Housing prices make a pointless comparison as their value has significantly outstripped the change in both the CPI and real wages.

Cheers
Russ

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by russellw

Looking at 1972, adult average weekly earnings (in Vic) were $5,200 per annum. The Phase 4 would have been ~$5,200 or a years average earnings.

Fast Forward to 2011. Average annual earnings are stated to be $53,350-$62,660 (dependant on which sector) but a GT-P has an RRP of about $77,100 thus about 1.4 years (at worst) to 1.23 years (at best).

In relative terms it was thus cheaper back then.

Housing prices make a pointless comparison as their value has significantly outstripped the change in both the CPI and real wages.

Cheers
Russ

agree entirely - my original post was based on someone using housing prices as a comparison. i was basically saying what you were, but did not have the info or motivation to look up the info to back it up

for sure the phase 3 was an expensive car then, but it was still somewhat affordable to a broad section of the community - depending on their other priorities - pretty similar to a gt-p now

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

You had to have lived through that era to truly understand it . Evan Green should have been shot for that article .

I agree. All it took was that sensationalised article from that attention seeking, MG driving, B grade journo and it was all over.

Time has a funny way of skewing things. It was never meant to be a negative article. Evan Green was a known petrol head at the time and a known competing rally driver.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

maybe the german's just have respect when driving

And that is the number one reason it will never ever work here .......

Some roads in Australia are very capable for way higher speed. Maybe not // but definitely 130-150. Its just the mentality of all the govco bods now and in the past and the total lack of respect drivers have here. Its the "I own the road" syndrome that could never get wiped out and seriously, because it is massively profitable for govco to keep it that way.

The adage that Aust is too big is not a reason. It doesn't have to be // on every freeway. Cars from the 70's compared to today ....... and the limit has gone down, quality of cars have skyrocketed along with some major roads. Doesn't make sense. Have the outer lane for 5 star labeled cars only at the least! May force more into them.

I just hope the way things are going with HSV vs FPV there isn't another sook by the public. Minority with the loudest voice wins in these things ...... always.

[russellw]

Let us not allow time and our obsession with the GT-HO to lose sight of the reality here.

Evan Green was an outstanding journalist and an unashamed car enthusiast. His article merely pointed out what most reasonable people thought at the time and as Bill Tuckey opined (another well respected motoring journalist) these cars were being built for all the wrong reasons.

There is another thread going on at the moment discussing the definition of a muscle car and while there are as more definitions than you can poke a stick at, the overall theme seems to be overpowered, under braked and basically only good in a straight line. That description fits all three of the planned 1972/3 generation of Bathurst specials from all three manufacturers to perfection.

While the GT-HO Phase 3 rightly claimed to be the fastest 4-door sedan of the time, there were plenty of other cars being manufactured at the time that were as fast - but they were typically European and actually managed to turn corners and stop reasonably well too - those being important criteria for their market buyers.

Given the performance potential of these things, the braking performance was a joke (try 70+ metres from 100 km/h); the cornering ability somewhat less than you'd get from a Transit van these days; the steering stupidly heavy; the (manual) gearbox a complete joke and the clutch suited to those whose legs were larger than their torsos.

They were fun in much the same way that sex in the back seat was - great when it was all you had but when you know better (or have access to better) then it's no more than a fond memory.

That the planned next iteration of the 3 manufacturers efforts would have been better cars is not questionable but whether the braking / handling equation would have closed the gap to the speed and acceleration capability is something I very much doubt.

Cheers
Russ

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Nikked

In the end, GM-H got a V8 torrie, Chrysler a V8 charger and Ford had the RPO83...

not the,, same an LJ... GTR-XU2
is a lot lighter than the SLR 5000 or A9X

[Blue Blooded]

The Europeans were just as guilty of neglecting brakes and handling. I remember a quote from Enzo Ferrari himself when questioned about the brakes on his cars "I build my cars to go, not stop" it may not be word for word but his message was clear.

[Angeldust]

in the end it was the adr27 that killed perfromance cars more than anything. 5 litre v8's making 130kw.... (dont even mention the 253 lol) though the good thing was that everybodey pulled off the pollution crap and retuned their cars to suit.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by russellw

While the GT-HO Phase 3 rightly claimed to be the fastest 4-door sedan of the time, there were plenty of other cars being manufactured at the time that were as fast - but they were typically European and actually managed to turn corners and stop reasonably well too - those being important criteria for their market buyers.

America had plenty of faster cars, but they only had two doors. Our performance cars tend to have two doors.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by Blue Blooded

The Europeans were just as guilty of neglecting brakes and handling. I remember a quote from Enzo Ferrari himself when questioned about the brakes on his cars "I build my cars to go, not stop" it may not be word for word but his message was clear.

An early NASCAR driver (I think it was Curtis Turner) once said, "You don't need brakes to drive a race car!"

But of course he raced on a dirt oval. He essentially drove two straights with a 180-degree powerslide separating them.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Blue Blooded

The Europeans were just as guilty of neglecting brakes and handling. I remember a quote from Enzo Ferrari himself when questioned about the brakes on his cars "I build my cars to go, not stop" it may not be word for word but his message was clear.

While that is a valid quote, the reality is that an early 70's Ferrari or Lambo could stop in 30-36 metres from 100 km/h thanks, in part, to relatively low weight (1,200 kg for a Daytona vs 1,524 for an XY GT) and a disc at each corner. Let's remember that the XY still had rear drums as did the Phase 4!

Cheers
Russ

[Moby Vic]

Mustang had rear drums until 1994.

[Blue Blooded]

I thought the Phase IV was gonna get 4 wheel discs?

[In Focus]

Originally Posted by russellw

Let us not allow time and our obsession with the GT-HO to lose sight of the reality here.

Evan Green was an outstanding journalist and an unashamed car enthusiast. His article merely pointed out what most reasonable people thought at the time and as Bill Tuckey opined (another well respected motoring journalist) these cars were being built for all the wrong reasons.

It was quite refreshing to read that article. Well thought out, well written. Not that common in current motoring journalists' articles, unfortunately.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Blue Blooded

Don't shoot me down as I'm a massive fan of the XY's, but you have to wonder if it would have become the cult hero it is without the supercar scare, with the manufacturers due to bring out bigger and better cars (in theory). I think that that one of the reasons it's so popular is that it's the last of the era
Just sayin

Emissions would have crippled them all anyway, only 2 or 3 years later with ADR27. The PH 4 probably would have remained the king.

[2011G6E]

Given the brakes and handling back then, maybe it's good that they didn't build them...

I remember an article from a late seventies Wheels magazine that included a piece on one of the top Italian road testers for Ferrari and Maserati, who went for a drive in one of the latest and greatest at the time, an A9X Torana.
He was driving, and as they bored down a long hill, the Italian guy said he was going to do a hard braking test. He jumped on the brakes...hard, and the car held a long snakey line down the hill, completely locked up and totally out of shape as the weight shifted awkwardly in the nose-heavy V8 Torana. The journalist said it "was apparent he wasn't going to let off the brakes, no matter what the car did", and when they eventually slid to a stop across the road, the unruffled Italian said calmly "So tell me...what sort of accidents do you have in Australia...?"

Even as late as the early eighties, chassis balance was hardly high on the list of important things for a perfornamce car. The Yanks did it differently...they concentrated on skid pan G-numbers...about which was memorably said "could be achieved just as well with a Morris Minor with the suspension welded up"... . As long as the suspension was stiff as a board and a massive engine was up front, the Yanks thought that was what made a "performance car"...

[4stanger]

Sorry members.
But holden had the upper hand, had the supercar thing had been left to continue.
All credit to the outstanding perfomances of the 73,74 & 77 bathurst & the 76 & 77 Touring car titles but the holden concept of the v8 torana was a hard one to beat for the rest of the 70s
If Ford was fair dinkum & stayed in motorsport beyond 73, what weapon would they had put up against the v8 torana, bearing in mind not all tracks in the touring car championship were bathurst style tracks, take go kart tracks like Amaroo for example!

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Arnaldo

Sorry members.
But holden had the upper hand, had the supercar thing had been left to continue.
All credit to the outstanding perfomances of the 73,74 & 77 bathurst & the 76 & 77 Touring car titles but the holden concept of the v8 torana was a hard one to beat for the rest of the 70s
If Ford was fair dinkum & stayed in motorsport beyond 73, what weapon would they had put up against the v8 torana, bearing in mind not all tracks in the touring car championship were bathurst style tracks, take go kart tracks like Amaroo for example!

and what did this so called torana do when ford was putting a similar amount of money in as holden was

for sure the l34 was dominant in the 74 bathurst and 75 seasons, but then ford were not putting any money in

76 was when ford dominated the championship and bathurst
77 needs no explanation

78 was when the money dried up again

whenever ford put money in against the torana, the ford won . . . . again. it has been said by many drivers "a good big car will always beat a good small car". the torana has only looked good when the falcon had no budget

[4stanger]

I find the quote "a good big car will always beat a good small car" a bit out dated especially the ALWAYS. Surely it has been proven over the years at Bathurst and the go kart tracks, through group A, group C and series production, this hasn't ALWAYS been the case or did the good BIG car have a good excuse for that day it came 2nd?

[Nikked]

Size doesn't matter

Balance on the otherhand.


Edit: I should elaborate... a big car does not necessarily mean better, but things like wheelbase etc will effect stability, and how agile it is.

Lotus concentrated to wieght to great effect...shelby put big engines in little cars...

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Arnaldo

I find the quote "a good big car will always beat a good small car" a bit out dated especially the ALWAYS. Surely it has been proven over the years at Bathurst and the go kart tracks, through group A, group C and series production, this hasn't ALWAYS been the case or did the good BIG car have a good excuse for that day it came 2nd?

very rarely did a little car win when it mattered in group c - (at bathurst)
group a is irrelevant because the rules suited smaller cars. permitted tyre sizes meant the cars with bigger engines were at a disadvantage

the quote may be outdated now, but it was a quote by colin bond (in the late 80's) when talking directly about the falcon coupe/torana days so i think it has relevance - particularly when the driver i quoted drove in successful works teams in both coupes and toranas

[4stanger]

Back to the Supercar scare, I would have been 7 years old when this started!
However, over the years, I have read a few articles about this.
The interesting thing to me is, if Evan Green never wrote that article, how much more would the 3 manufacturers, would have went trying to out do each other? Pure speculation of course, would Ford ever consider a Boss 429 Falcon coupe!!! Would chrysler dare to go 440 hemi for the charger? Would Holden see there error that the torana couldn't feasibly fit a 454 and try and put that in the kingswood!

[gtxb67]

it seems the rules were always going to change for 1973. because the cars were no longer going to be series production, then the manufacturers no longer had the need to build them
as others have suggested adr27a? would have made it difficult to continue with those cars

i doubt they would have gone to big blocks. I believe moff tried a big block in his mustang, but the 302 was quicker because the 302 weighed less and therefore made the car turn in better

[Nikked]

"old man emu" In the song, the emu was quiker then the Kangaroo...

And Holdens 'Old man emu' was to be a 400ci monaro...





The blue one is a clay styling mock up for proposal...and the yellow one ment to be fitted with a 400ci...with the 350/z to through Ford off the sent.

In the end, it (the cost) wasn't justified, and holden stuck with the XU-1

[4stanger]

Originally Posted by Nikked

"old man emu" In the song, the emu was quiker then the Kangaroo...

And Holdens 'Old man emu' was to be a 400ci monaro...

image

image

The blue one is a clay styling mock up for proposal...and the yellow one ment to be fitted with a 400ci...with the 350/z to through Ford off the sent.

In the end, it (the cost) wasn't justified, and holden stuck with the XU-1

good pics.
I never seen or heard of those ones.
But then again, I don't have much interest in the kingswoods