How many Kids have to DIE before the Government pulls their finger out????

[grandpa_spec_F6]

As a more recent product of the OLD public education system, I feel I am in a position to comment that the commitment to keeping the road toll down for young drivers starts at school.

Do you know what my mates and I got when we were at school? Zip, nada, nothing. I got a stern talking to from the driving instructor on the test for my P plates and that was it.

What Im getting at is we had no idea of the consequences, or what a "good" driver was. When I look back at the risks we took in those first few years it amazes me we are still here today.

I know this post screams "its someone elses fault Im a bad driver" but put it into perspective. If your dog ****** on the carpet its because it wasn't house trained. you put it outside and show it the correct way, before hand, or like the gov does... Rip up all the carpet and declare the problem solved.

[Rockape]

Im just waiting for the perent's to blame everyone but themselves. How they were such good kids and all that.

[DJM83]

Driver education

Give people like this driver education so that when they steal my car they wont crash it.... Nothing will fix these levels of stupid, well it was fixed for these people.

They stole someones possession, they paid the price and wont do it again. Simple.

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by flappist

You smack your child for being naughty and the do-gooders arc up as smacking is "child abuse".
You try and discipline your child and they complain to the do-gooders who arc up as you are "hurting their feelings and self esteem".
Your child is taught that they have rights and are equal to all adults but as children they are actually protected and superior.

I cannot agree more with these statements.

I had some lady in her 50's-60s walk up to us in a shopping centre while my two year old was being a typical two year old and she said are we OK? My wife said yeah we're fine but he's gonna get a smack if he doesn't stop.

She was in shock and said oh no, you can't do that. I then said well if you don't want him knocking on your door in 10 years time brandishing a knife and asking for all your money then you will mind your business, cause thats the result of not letting parents be parents. She walked off in a huff.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

I cannot agree more with these statements.

I had some lady in her 50's-60s walk up to us in a shopping centre while my two year old was being a typical two year old and she said are we OK? My wife said yeah we're fine but he's gonna get a smack if he doesn't stop.

She was in shock and said oh no, you can't do that. I then said well if you don't want him knocking on your door in 10 years time brandishing a knife and asking for all your money then you will mind your business, cause thats the result of not letting parents be parents. She walked off in a huff.

Totally agreed, the government arent responsible directly for this accident, but it is their desire to protect children from discipline that has contributed to it.

I use the term contributed as i believe at the end of the day a parent needs to take a certain amount of responsibility too.

I was only a young fella when it became taboo to smack kids, prior to that i had felt the wrath of my father on many occasaions.
Did he change his approach because some do gooder decided his way was wrong...not on your life.
I still copped it whenever i pushed the boundaries.

During my early teens i grew into a tall, strong fella and often thought one day i'd square up with him.
Fast forward to my late teens early twenties and i realised that the firm upbringing and structure he provided kept me safe from myself.

Now, the do gooders will tell you a smack in your childhood years will lead to violence in adulthood, to that i say BS.
I copped my fair share of smacks and have never raised my fist other than to defend myself, it has not made me a violent person at all.

If you ask me the only thing the do gooder achieved was to absolve the parent of the responsibility of ensuring their child is a good citizen.

Sure, there are kids who have never been smacked and have become model citizens, but so to are there succesful people who needed that tough love and as i do, proberbly look back with thanks for the experience.

There is no instruction manual that comes with a childs birth and every child is different, you cant apply a blanket rule over every individual, this is where the parent needs to be allowed to take the appropriate action as they see fit.

Like i always say when these incidents occur, there is nothing you can do to help the people who have perished as a result of poor decisions, but i will use their misfortune to educate my kids to the real dangers, and when and if my kids need a smack they'll get it.

My sister lost her 4 kids to welfare 15 years ago as some do gooder decided they were at risk from the strict upbringing they recieved, they went into foster care and were spread across the state going from home to home, if the do gooders think that is a better alternative then can they explain how two of them ended up with regular police contact...

[strobe]

Kids these days!

You guys must have led sheltered lives. Growing up I knew plenty of morons who were boosting cars (along with other epically intelligent things like stealing letter boxes). Their parents didn't give a toss, and sadly they're probably the parents of like minded wastes of space.

Nothing is new about low lifes being low lifes. I'm sure some roman dude probably grumbled about kids these days after a particularly nasty chariot stealing incident.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by strobe

Kids these days!

You guys must have led sheltered lives. Growing up I knew plenty of morons who were boosting cars (along with other epically intelligent things like stealing letter boxes). Their parents didn't give a toss, and sadly they're probably the parents of like minded wastes of space.

Nothing is new about low lifes being low lifes. I'm sure some roman dude probably grumbled about kids these days after a particularly nasty chariot stealing incident.

Ah yes but back then the local copper would take them out the back and "explain" to them they were doing wrong and if they did it again they would get another "explanation".

Now they just get let off with yet another warning and if anyone tries to "explain" the errors of their ways they end up in jail instead of the grubs.......

[JC]

Originally Posted by Sorted

Well done the Australian Government - close your eyes and wait for the next accident to kill more kids on our roads - do NOTHING about it except blame HOONS by adding harsher penalties to those who are licenced.
I recall some one in the government once saying if the new laws save one life then it is all worth it.

So why no DRIVER EDUCATION??????

Apparently there is a need to talk to young people about the dangers of driving, really - NO **** !!!!!!!!

In reality what will happen, speed limits will be reduced, more speed camera's, harsher penalties for any offence etc etc

How does that help or deter the kids who don't even have driver's licences???

I am personally very disappointed with our Government - our kids are dying on our streets and they are doing nothing anout it.

Sorry, but I disagree with your sentiments (strongly disagree). What are kids aged between 12 and 16 doing out at midnight on a weeknight - or any night???!! What are their PARENTS doing about it? The government can legidslate all they like, for example, it is already illegal to steal a car (apparently the camry was stolen), it is also illegal for an unlicensed driver to drive a car (the driver was unlicensed), it is illegal to have more people in a car than there are seatbaelts, it is illegal not to wear a seat belt, it is illegal to speed, it is illegal to drive in a dangerous manner, etc. So what practical things do you think the government can do about this? Unless you advocate swarms of police doing the rounds to lock up any kids found on the streets after a decent hour (say 9pm), then there's not much - at least not when parents don't seem to care where there kids are. Of course, now the parents of the deceased will want the government to do something, but why should the government be responsible when the parents weren't.

Ironically, you need a license to drive, but you don't need a license to be a parent.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by strobe

Kids these days!

You guys must have led sheltered lives. Growing up I knew plenty of morons who were boosting cars (along with other epically intelligent things like stealing letter boxes). Their parents didn't give a toss, and sadly they're probably the parents of like minded wastes of space.

Nothing is new about low lifes being low lifes. I'm sure some roman dude probably grumbled about kids these days after a particularly nasty chariot stealing incident.

Whilst i do agree somewhat.
I never thought of stealing a car, most i did was move my mates car that you could start with a coin.
Yeah we got up to mischief but if i was caught i copped the wrath of my old mans steal cap or the back of his band across my backside, lesson learnt.

Kids will be kids yes but to varying degrees as i just highlighted in my last paragraph.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

I cannot agree more with these statements.

I had some lady in her 50's-60s walk up to us in a shopping centre while my two year old was being a typical two year old and she said are we OK? My wife said yeah we're fine but he's gonna get a smack if he doesn't stop.

She was in shock and said oh no, you can't do that. I then said well if you don't want him knocking on your door in 10 years time brandishing a knife and asking for all your money then you will mind your business, cause thats the result of not letting parents be parents. She walked off in a huff.

Gold - absolute gold. My sister is of the "no smacking" mentality, and her kids are feral. She asks how come my kids behave so well, and I just show her the palm of my hand!

[strobe]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Whilst i do agree somewhat.
I never thought of stealing a car, most i did was move my mates car that you could start with a coin.
Yeah we got up to mischief but if i was caught i copped the wrath of my old mans steal cap or the back of his band across my backside, lesson learnt.

Kids will be kids yes but to varying degrees as i just highlighted in my last paragraph.

I'm not saying kids will be kids...I was never involved with that stuff. I'm saying morons will be morons. And morons with moron parents will be undisciplined morons.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Sorted

Well done the Australian Governement - close your eyes and wait for the next accident to kill more kids on our roads - do NOTHING about it except blame HOONS by adding harsher penalties to those who are licenced.
I recall some one in the government once saying if the new laws save one life then it is all worth it.

So why no DRIVER EDUCATION??????

Apparently there is a need to talk to young people about the dangers of driving, really - NO **** !!!!!!!!

In reality what will happen, speed limits will be reduced, more speed camera's, harsher penalties for any offence etc etc

How does that help or deter the kids who don't even have driver's licences???

I am personally very disappointed with our Government - our kids are dying on our streets and they are doing nothing anout it.

How can you blame the government for this one?

Why was kids of that age out in the middle of the night driving a stolen car would be the big question?

Children's responsibility starts at home.

[2011G6E]

Car thieves...I've always said that because of the pitiful "punishment" they get for stealing the second biggest investment most people make after their home, that if someone stole my car, I'd actually want them to die in a high speed accident...it's fully insured and at least they'll never steal anyone elses car...

Back on topic: driver training.

I've always been puzzled that governments actually say that driver training and defensive driver course make young people worse behind the wheel...as if you need no prior training before getting in a car. Some crap about it causes them to think they're "advanced drivers" or something. Just an excuse to save spending some money.

I drive trains...and apart from the extremely long stopping distances, once they're moving, they aren't going anywhere...obey the signals, and nothing much can go wrong...it's not like you can steer it into oncoming traffic. In fact, it's almost embarassing to admit it, but they're ludicrously easy to drive for the staggering amount of money we get paid...the standard saying is that we aren't paid because we know how to make them go, we're paid so well because we know how to stop them...
However, I had to go through about four months of solid training, then spend over a year with a tutor driver before an extensive testing process to prove I knew what I was doing.
Then, once I had my "licence", I have to get a full medical every two years (and I mean "full"...*squeek*!), and go through a MOC, or "Maintenance Of Competence", virtually "resitting my licence", where I have to go around for three days with a tutor and prove I still know what I'm doing, as well as answer maybe a hundred pages of questions on various regulations and procedures.
Us train drivers often wonder what the roads would look like if cars and truck drivers had to do a similar thing every two years...we don't really know, but we're betting they'd be a lot emptier...

I remember back in 1980 when I left high school in grade 10, that the school had just picked up a very second hand Gemini sedan to use for driver training for the grade 12 kids who were getting ready to leave school and get their licence...it wasn't registered, but they would drive around the back of the school oval being taught the basics. The program folded for lack of funding, and I haven't actually heard of any other schools doing this...

[LG17]

Originally Posted by grandpa_spec_F6

As a more recent product of the OLD public education system, I feel I am in a position to comment that the commitment to keeping the road toll down for young drivers starts at school.

Do you know what my mates and I got when we were at school? Zip, nada, nothing. I got a stern talking to from the driving instructor on the test for my P plates and that was it.

What Im getting at is we had no idea of the consequences, or what a "good" driver was. When I look back at the risks we took in those first few years it amazes me we are still here today.

I know this post screams "its someone elses fault Im a bad driver" but put it into perspective. If your dog ****** on the carpet its because it wasn't house trained. you put it outside and show it the correct way, before hand, or like the gov does... Rip up all the carpet and declare the problem solved.

There is a fantastic program called "Docudrama" which goes through the realities of accidents which is taken to many high schools in Qld. We have been attempting to secure funding from the State Gov't to enable its roll out in all schools. Many primary schools are now running bike ed and road safety programs with their students as a pre-cursor to driver training as well. Road Safety is at the forefront of many education programs today and we are fighting for it to be on the same level as English, Maths, Science...

[Outbackjack]

It is certain that any laws any government brought in to stop this kind of stupidity would be universally despised. I dont know the families, but willing to go out on a limb here.... Bad parenting would be at the heart of what happened here. Even young kids can be taught right from wrong.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

It is certain that any laws any government brought in to stop this kind of stupidity would be universally despised. I dont know the families, but willing to go out on a limb here.... Bad parenting would be at the heart of what happened here. Even young kids can be taught right from wrong.

When it comes right down to it, if a kid...even a little kid...doesn't get brought up knowing it's wrong to take something that doesn't belong to you, then the parents have to wear a large proportion of the blame...

[mr smith]

Young people stealing cars is a direct result of a society in love with a car culture, it represents freedom, danger and fun times. They paid the ultimate price.
To say they deserve to die because the stole a car is a bit heavy.
Has man ever produced a product that has caused more deaths, injury, constant heartache, damage to the environment, and wars over fuel than the car?
The more I think about it the more I feel we have evolved into dumb *** species.

[Maka]

No parents like to lose a loved one....my condolences go out to the parents of these kids. Why do these tragedy's keep continuing? Because the right policy or legislation is not in place! - for a start, teens with any criminal record should be curfewed full stop! These teens need to be saved from themselves and this is one issue the community is sick of hearing about over & over again.

State & Fed government plus all stakehoders have to get together now & nut out appropriate & responsible policy & legislate it asap - without punishing responsible road users & teens, it'll be hard for them but this issue of teen crime has/will get a whole lot worse in the coming years.

You can be the best parents in the world but sometimes that wont stop your teen from doing anything they want to do.

cheers, Maka

[Nikked]

Kids die after stealing a car.


And people blame the government.


There is the problem there, no responsibility for actions....always somebodies (or the governments fault)

[JC]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Kids die after stealing a car.

And people blame the government.

There is the problem there, no responsibility for actions....always somebodies (or the governments fault)

Spot on Nikked.

[Work Horse]

Gee fellas, these kids have not been dead 24hours and everyone wants to put the slipper in.

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato 469–399 B.C

[Dr Smith]

This tragedy has nothing to do with driver education and more to do with lawful behaviour, or lack of. What might have started out as trying to have to have some cheap thrills ends in funerals for some, severe injuries for others, and a future of sorrow and life long loss for family and friends. It starts with the guardians of these children, whether that be parents or others. That said, the best parent doesn't always raise the best child, and vice versa? A sad day.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Gee fellas, these kids have not been dead 24hours and everyone wants to put the slipper in.

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato 469–399 B.C

That sorta kinda sums up more than just a few kids I guess. But I have to say that my kids (22,21,12) and their friends are thouroughly decent people. My oldest two have more than once said "thanks Dad for being tough on us when we were younger" So many of their school buddies are single parents, done Juevie, or have departed this mortal realm. They can see that now.

But, my heart does go out to the parents of these kids. Its a tragedy when a parent out lives their children.

[ebxr8240]

Yep if there's a problem ?? Blame someone else or the Gov !!

I bought our kids up to respect things like alcohol, often have some at dinner etc .. A friend of our said kids shouldn't touch alcohol.. Well our kids still respect it.. Our friends kids 2 have suspended licence due to DUI the other is an alcoholic..

The same can be said about driving.. Or being RESPONSABLE ..I have driven vehicles since I was about 5 years old..By the time I was 15 when I got my licence I knew how far to push the boundaries..Most my early driving was on a farm..

[2011G6E]

Kids generally won't do the right thing if there are no consequences for doing the wrong thing...I'm sure those of use with kids know of other parents who don't believe in discipline, and resort to bullcrap like "time outs" and "sit and think about what you've done"...more accurately think about how not to ge caught next time...

When I was at school in the seventies and up to 1980, you mucked around, yes, but you always had it in the back of your head that if you went a little too far, it was off to the office for the cuts. In class, we used to have teachers who could yell so loud your eardrums would burst, guys (and they were mostly men) who could make a marine drill sergent stop and take notes, men who could throw a piece of chalk with surgical precision at someones head who was mucking around in the back rows, men who could sneak up on you with ninja-like skills and smack a wooden ruler on the back of your knuckles before you even knew what had happened.

What is there to fear from "authority" figures now? Teachers have had all the power taken away from them, kids know all of their rights but no responsibilities, and if by some miracle they do get into trouble, angry parents will storm into the school saying their little darling simply couldn't have done anything wrong, and put in an official complaint against the teacher.
This is why teachers like my older brother left the profession...the teachers are afraid to raise their voices, they are afraid to lay a finger on a kid, they are terrified to do anything at all that could be used as evidence in trumped up complaints against them from some little *****, so it's easier just to let the kids do pretty much what they want and hope they soon graduate and bugger off, to let the next class of little undisciplined darlings come on through...kids who have never had a harsh word raised to them by fearful parents, kids who see news story after news story of little hoods walking out of court free giving the news cameras the finger (with no conviction recorded) for sometimes quite serious crimes, and know that they now have all the power in the situation.

This should not have been allowed to occur, but social engineers have made it so...kids should have literally NO power in a school situation...you sit there, shut the hell up, do your work, and behave...that is the end of your involvement in school, not to question endlessly, not to sit there and "be yourself" or "I'm an individual and no one can tell me what to do"...you should have no say in anything at all...follow the damn rules and shut up.

You learn nothing by a gentle touch...nothing comes easy, and unless there is a painful, tangible reminder that you have just done the wrong thing, nothing will be learned.

This is why employers see so many kids who walk in off the street and seem surprised that they can't start out in a management position or have an office...they are shocked to learn they have to start at the bottom and work their way up... this isn't what they were promised when they were told to "shoot for the stars", and "don't let anyone tell you that you can't do something!"...

It's also why the old saying is absolutely true..."If you think your parents and teachers were tough on you, wait until you have a boss..."

[BadMax]

Government fault? No. Parent's to blame? Not entirely. Society to blame? Not really.

How many of us snuck out at night? I know I certainly did. I also got into cars we'd borrowed from parents while they were asleep. We'd also go visit girls and pick them up, the difference I guess is we had the fear of death about getting caught, not by Police but our parents. We were genuinely afraid of our parents, which I don't believe exists with young teens or kids these days.
We wouldn't speed or do anything silly, but there was always a risk involved, we survived and probably thousands more have, it's unfortunate that it's happened. More laws or driver education will not make a difference.

[tweeked]

Watch a nature documentary. Young lion cub or wild dog plays and learns, but goes too far and the watching parent gives a warning growl then a nip or a shake, the cub learns boundaries and a right and wrong way. All intelligent animals are programmed in to push the boundaries to learn. You cannot, and would not want to stop this. But we are programming out the growl and nip from the parents. Or the parent doesn't even watch or show interest.

[Keepleft]

Governments 'fault' - only to the extent of their social agenda programs that have been imposed on the western developed world, - these last few decades through schools>>kindie/pre school etc.

Rights, smacking, all that bolshie rubbish. Old ways worked best, generally.

Not the fist time, won't be the last, recalling now that Kings Cross incident not that long ago where two female pedestrians were knocked down.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Kids generally won't do the right thing if there are no consequences for doing the wrong thing...I'm sure those of use with kids know of other parents who don't believe in discipline, and resort to bullcrap like "time outs" and "sit and think about what you've done"...more accurately think about how not to ge caught next time...

When I was at school in the seventies and up to 1980, you mucked around, yes, but you always had it in the back of your head that if you went a little too far, it was off to the office for the cuts. In class, we used to have teachers who could yell so loud your eardrums would burst, guys (and they were mostly men) who could make a marine drill sergent stop and take notes, men who could throw a piece of chalk with surgical precision at someones head who was mucking around in the back rows, men who could sneak up on you with ninja-like skills and smack a wooden ruler on the back of your knuckles before you even knew what had happened.

What is there to fear from "authority" figures now? Teachers have had all the power taken away from them, kids know all of their rights but no responsibilities, and if by some miracle they do get into trouble, angry parents will storm into the school saying their little darling simply couldn't have done anything wrong, and put in an official complaint against the teacher.
This is why teachers like my older brother left the profession...the teachers are afraid to raise their voices, they are afraid to lay a finger on a kid, they are terrified to do anything at all that could be used as evidence in trumped up complaints against them from some little *****, so it's easier just to let the kids do pretty much what they want and hope they soon graduate and bugger off, to let the next class of little undisciplined darlings come on through...kids who have never had a harsh word raised to them by fearful parents, kids who see news story after news story of little hoods walking out of court free giving the news cameras the finger (with no conviction recorded) for sometimes quite serious crimes, and know that they now have all the power in the situation.

This should not have been allowed to occur, but social engineers have made it so...kids should have literally NO power in a school situation...you sit there, shut the hell up, do your work, and behave...that is the end of your involvement in school, not to question endlessly, not to sit there and "be yourself" or "I'm an individual and no one can tell me what to do"...you should have no say in anything at all...follow the damn rules and shut up.

You learn nothing by a gentle touch...nothing comes easy, and unless there is a painful, tangible reminder that you have just done the wrong thing, nothing will be learned.

This is why employers see so many kids who walk in off the street and seem surprised that they can't start out in a management position or have an office...they are shocked to learn they have to start at the bottom and work their way up... this isn't what they were promised when they were told to "shoot for the stars", and "don't let anyone tell you that you can't do something!"...

It's also why the old saying is absolutely true..."If you think your parents and teachers were tough on you, wait until you have a boss..."

So much better put than i could ever have written and smack on the money, pardon the pun!

Its quite ironic that this has come up actually.
My 27yo nephew is struggling with a perception problem at the moment.
On top of that he has a 3 1/2yo son who is fast getting out of control, only yesterday his lad picked up their small budgie cage, with budgie inside, and launched it at his mother.
The budgie has moved on...

Why does he have a perception problem you ask...because he's too scared to discipline his son in the prescence of anyone incase they think he's a bad father, so as a result his kid is put in the naughty corner.

Thats clearly working, not.

The problem is, he is one of the 4 children i spoke about in my previous post taken away by welfare 15yrs ago because someone made a report out of spite and he was whisked away from his family overnight by child welfare.
The things he witnessed in his time as a ward of the state is not something i would repeat here.
Truth is, he is **** scared to discipline his out of control son incase some do gooder reports it and they take him away.

Tragic really, but reality in so many scenarios.

We went for a drive this afternoon and i mentioned to him about this thread, the awful accident at the centre of it and the tragic loss of loved ones as a result of children being allowed to run riot.

I hope he realises that his soft approach may one day lead to what we have here, sadly his perception issues will win i fear.

[aualright]

Originally Posted by strobe

Kids these days!

You guys must have led sheltered lives. Growing up I knew plenty of morons who were boosting cars (along with other epically intelligent things like stealing letter boxes). Their parents didn't give a toss, and sadly they're probably the parents of like minded wastes of space.

Nothing is new about low lifes being low lifes. I'm sure some roman dude probably grumbled about kids these days after a particularly nasty chariot stealing incident.

That is what I was thinking. I am 42 and this was going on when I was young, still is now and will in the future.

BTW, my dad never beat the crap out of me but I still knew right from wrong. I personally think it is cowardly to strike someone you know won't hit back, even in the name of discipline. And he was a pugilist in his younger days. He did teach me how to defend myself and also instilled in me to only use it as a defence. That's as far as violence wnet in my family.

****