XR8 vs SSV including dyno test - Page 10

**kypez** · 13-01-2015, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempted

Last time I checked there was a whole lot more to an engine that just a supercharger.

Ok, I'll spell it out for the less informed but inversely proportionally opinionated. There was no supercharged version thus the whole engine had to be engineered to handle the supercharger. Piston, heads, manifold, the whole damn thing. Only thing that didn't need engineering was the block.

SensationFG8 · 13-01-2015, 11:19 PM

So your making a point that in no way relates to the post you quoted...?

There is no myth or misconception, development work doesn't always have to be from scratch. It's a hell of a lot more work than buying a crate and unpacking it...

**kypez** · 13-01-2015, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempted

And that is my point... It is not a ground up Aussie development like the I6, it's just a modified parts bin special. Not saying it a bad motor, because its a cracker of a motor, but I think some people are being blinded by myths and misconceptions.

Just wow. Guess those Aston's are parts bin specials as well...

Bent8 · 14-01-2015, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

No you are wrong and making excuses. The chassis is old and they have done what they can to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, and done a good job of it, but stop making excuses for its basic design faults inherent in the chassis by saying crap like it is designed as a grand tourer etc, it is grand tourer level because that is about as far as they can take it without a major chassis rework. Of course a better chassis, is also more compliant, more playful and requires less stiff suspension etc. to make work too.... It is win-win-win all round, the Ford chassis is a step behind the current Commodore and thus dynamically is way behind the eight ball, simple really...

I'm not making excuses mate, yes the FG chassis is older than the VF and not as fine tuned but the XR8 was never meant to be a track day car while I'm sure you're willing to admit the Redline's chassis is setup specifically for the track.

I even said I would pick the Holden if all I was after was a track day sedan for under $60k.

But given a choice of any marque, my track car would be an M3, 911 or even the new Mustang that's about to be released... the lighter the better I say.

And while the Holden boys are pointing fingers at Ford for using an ageing chassis, I can point the finger right back at Holden for only offering a 35kW increase in their Commodore SS over the past decade!.... while Ford's XR8 has gone from 260kW to approx 375kW

1TUFFUTE · 14-01-2015, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempted

So it was done in Prodrive's factory and not at Ford Australia?

If it wasn't for Prodrive do you think the Miami would exist? Ford would probably still be using the 5.4 boss.

Oooooooooo myyyyyyyy gaaaaaawd

I spose the "Australian" pro drive guys did all the engine work for ford because ford wouldn't do it. Maybe ford even refused anything but crate engines......pro drive even did it free.......or maybe ford worked with them to develop the most hardcore factory engine for Aussies!

I think after 3 posts like this, members should get a Holden logo as their avatar!

**kypez** · 14-01-2015, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempted

And that is my point... It is not a ground up Aussie development like the I6, it's just a modified parts bin special. Not saying it a bad motor, because its a cracker of a motor, but I think some people are being blinded by myths and misconceptions.

speaking of being blinded by myths and misconceptions, I think you need to read up about the i6... Especially it origins...

By your logic it might not make the cut as being Aussie developed because it's not ground up Aussie.

GTP534 · 14-01-2015, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempted

My point is that people are crediting Ford for developing the Miami as opposed to using crate engines, when infact the development of the Miami was actually done by the Australian arm of a foreign engineering company.

Last time I looked the "F" in FPV stood for FORD.

Cashie · 14-01-2015, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempted

My point is that people are crediting Ford for developing the Miami as opposed to using crate engines, when infact the development of the Miami was actually done by the Australian arm of a foreign engineering company.

Sure it was....NOT.
FPV (which prodrive owned a stake of back in the day) spent 3 years and $40m developing the engine.
40% of the engine is unique to Australia and manufactured in Australia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempted

Wasn't it developed by Prodrive from a U.S parts bin? I don't really think Ford Australia can take full credit for it, unlike the inline 6.

No US parts bin, see above. Ford Australia can and should take full credit for it because they stumped up the $40m.

You do know the history of the Ford I6 don't you and where it originally came from?

WHYME · 14-01-2015, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

speaking of being blinded by myths and misconceptions, I think you need to read up about the i6... Especially it origins...

By your logic it might not make the cut as being Aussie developed because it's not ground up Aussie.

I borrowed this from a post I saw mcnews write in the 5.0 S/C section some time ago, hopefully he doesn't mind. It was about aussie production engines under the topic Engine Builders name?:

"At the risk of being controversial... What me....? :-)/..... If you want a genuine Aussie engine muscle car it has to be F6. Same as back in the 70s the E49 Charger was the only truly Aussie built engine in a fast car. Everything else was just bolted together here with no Aussie engineering input at all really. I am afraid to say the only truly Aussie V8 muscle cars are 308-304 Holdens, just they were all dog slow in comparison to the Aussie built Hemi sixpack that came previously, let alone of course the awesome F6 in this era :-)".

Now just to clarify weren't half of the Miami parts based and imported from the US? Whilst the F6 engine was 100% designed and developed here in Australia.

zilo · 14-01-2015, 06:13 PM

forced

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

Ok, I'll spell it out for the less informed but inversely proportionally opinionated. There was no supercharged version thus the whole engine had to be engineered to handle the supercharger. Piston, heads, manifold, the whole damn thing. Only thing that didn't need engineering was the block.

Up to 7psi of supercharging can be applied without much modification to just about any engine.

Certainly doesn't need pistons/heads with the right tune.

Bossxr8 · 14-01-2015, 07:23 PM

In a production engine requiring full engineering certification then yes it does. Aftermarket kits mean nothing.

SensationFG8 · 14-01-2015, 07:34 PM

I don't get why everyone is determined to prove Aussies had nothing to do with Miami development? Does everyone think the 40 million was spent on jetsetting around the world to pick parts and they just slapped it together and it all worked first go?

Cashie · 14-01-2015, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

I don't get why everyone is determined to prove Aussies had nothing to do with Miami development? Does everyone think the 40 million was spent on jetsetting around the world to pick parts and they just slapped it together and it all worked first go?

Agree, if it wasn't for FPV there would never have been a Miami, pretty straight forward really..
But hey, it is just knocked together with off the shelf parts, the $40m must have been for the closing down ****up.

TK4ORD · 14-01-2015, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempted

image

Thats Prodrive

Now look up FPV and put up the details

The Commodore has the least Aussie content out of all the Aussie made cars, aside from the Holden Cruise kits.

mcnews · 14-01-2015, 08:46 PM

The engine is not Australian at all just some ancillaries and few components made here

SensationFG8 · 14-01-2015, 08:58 PM

No one ever said it was fully Australian, just developed in Australia. We even clarified that developed doesn't necessarily mean fully from scratch in the context we were talking...

mtbkym01 · 14-01-2015, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

The engine is not Australian at all just some ancillaries and few components made here

It's more Australian than anything offered by any competitors

1TUFFUTE · 14-01-2015, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtbkym01

It's more Australian than anything offered by any competitors

Yep....if it was just a crate 5.0 motor from the US then the American engined cars would be wiping the floor with us.

But NO. Ford took that engine, Pulled it apart, rebuilt it adding a supercharger.
Now making it the most powerfull Aussie muscle car!

Credit where credits due

Not to mention this XR8 is 60% local AUSTRALIAN parts vs the SSs 40%(soon to be 30% matching the cruze apparently)

flooded one · 14-01-2015, 10:21 PM

If it was a crate motor, wouldn't of been called "Coyote" instead of "Miami"

**Falcon Coupe** · 14-01-2015, 10:47 PM

Nothing is unique to Australia anymore. As long as it performs well, is reliable and priced competitively does it really matter?
We still have a great engineering team in Ford Australia thats actually expanding by around 400 jobs this year.
I'd sooner have designed here and made in china than the other way around....

futura · 14-01-2015, 11:01 PM

Can anyone on here confirm if the SSV redline FE3 Suspension is used on the wagon?

40RDT · 14-01-2015, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by futura

Can anyone on here confirm if the SSV redline FE3 Suspension is used on the wagon?

Redline wagon has FE3 suspension also

**kypez** · 15-01-2015, 12:13 AM

The i6 is based off the north American motor design. The Miami is 100% Australian designed and developed. Just cause the block comes from America doesn't mean much. Think of it as the block has been outsourced.

Just as the i6 started off a U.S. design that it can still be traced back to...

And that's post 1000.

graphicgoose · 15-01-2015, 02:07 AM

Why is this argument even a thing? Who gives a crap where the engine came from/was developed, there's no denying the Miami is a cracker! Move on y'all.

arronm · 15-01-2015, 02:51 AM

Miami, Is that in Florida or Victoria. Hmmm name sorta gives it away...

arronm · 15-01-2015, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

The i6 is based off the north American motor design. The Miami is 100% Australian designed and developed. Just cause the block comes from America doesn't mean much. Think of it as the block has been outsourced.

Just as the i6 started off a U.S. design that it can still be traced back to...

And that's post 1000.

60% of the time, it works every-time........

XR Martin · 15-01-2015, 10:05 AM

Both the V8 and the I6 in the Falcon is unique to Australia, that is a fact.
Whether you want to call them 'Australian' is up to interpretation, but the reality is both engines in their current configuration can only be found in the Falcon.

Iggle Piggle · 15-01-2015, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

...Not to mention this XR8 is 60% local AUSTRALIAN parts vs the SSs 40%...

So looking at last year's sales and using your percentages of local content, Ford placed orders with local suppliers for 60% of 6349 units, and Holden placed orders for 40% of 30203 units (plus Caprice plus exports).

So who was responsible for most of the components manufactured in Australia last year?

I reckon the answer would be Toyota.

mcnews · 15-01-2015, 10:46 AM

I call an engine Australian where it is so different from its source design that it is not comparable, when it is cast in Australia and all the components inside that motor were made in Australia. Ford's six is like this, the Valiant Hemi 6 is like this, the Holden Red 6 and the 304/308 were like this, that's it really.

**kypez** · 15-01-2015, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

I call an engine Australian where it is so different from its source design that it is not comparable, when it is cast in Australia and all the components inside that motor were made in Australia. Ford's six is like this, the Valiant Hemi 6 is like this, the Holden Red 6 and the 304/308 were like this, that's it really.

Not all the components inside are made in Australia...