Thousands of Aussie Ford owners could take part in class action over ‘defective automatic gearboxes’ - Page 7

mik · 06-07-2016, 06:33 PM

i wouldn't like to bet on that , the numbers are against them it would seem , and the more they battle it out , the worse the brand name gets dragged through the mud .

Mercury Bullet · 06-07-2016, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Nope, i just googled DSG and read what it had to say about them. Thats when i realised that they werent an Automatic at all, but infact 2 manual gearboxes in 1.
Then when i considered how they are meant to work i understood what all the fuss was about and why they are doing what they are doing.

Time will tell, i think Ford will win this battle...lose the war, but win the battle.

Maybe you should read the first post on this page.

They are sold as an automatic.

Even you had to google it.

Adamz Ghia · 06-07-2016, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NX74205

No. Under the ACL, the supplier is not liable where the defect is caused by misuse. If Ford successfully proves on the balance of probabilities that the gearbox is not defective by design, but that the defects, if any, are caused by misuse of the gearbox, they are not liable under the ACL.

Those who think that this class action is a slam dunk case has another think coming.

It is also settled law that if one party rejects a settlement offer, and that party are not awarded damages greater than that settlement offer, that party will be liable for the costs of the action from the time that the settlement offer was rejected (or lapsed).

And I'll ask again, if you cannot drive the car sold to you as an automatic like an automatic then why weren't dealers telling prospective buyers this? That is deception, plain as day. They are advertising them as automatics and selling them as automatics. No where in advertising in print or TV does it say drivers will need to learn new driving styles.

Adamz Ghia · 06-07-2016, 06:44 PM

Out of curiosity, how many defects do other auto makers who sell this kind of gear box get?

BENT_8 · 06-07-2016, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Maybe you should read the first post on this page.

They are sold as an automatic.

Even you had to google it.

They are an automatic, automatic clutch, thats it.

I googled it because i was curious as to what made them so special, i had already seen enough bad reports to see they were a problem.
When my wife bought her previous car we compared it to the equivalent Mondeo with powershift and upon researching them i kept the hell away.
At the time i didnt investigate firther as i took word of mouth, when i actually looked at them closer i understood how the box works and why it creates a problem for some owners.
I also understand that every man and his dog offloads them at the 100k mark when the warranty is up.

Im not saying its a good setup, just that i understand whats happening to cause all the grief.

Mercury Bullet · 06-07-2016, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

They are an automatic, automatic clutch, thats it.

I googled it because i was curious as to what made them so special, i had already seen enough bad reports to see they were a problem.
When my wife bought her previous car we compared it to the equivalent Mondeo with powershift and upon researching them i kept the hell away.
At the time i didnt investigate firther as i took word of mouth, when i actually looked at them closer i understood how the box works and why it creates a problem for some owners.
I also understand that every man and his dog offloads them at the 100k mark when the warranty is up.

Im not saying its a good setup, just that i understand whats happening to cause all the grief.

And that's why Ford are in trouble here.

If Ford marketed it as an automated manual and told people they had to change their driving styles two things would have happened.

Ford wouldn't be in this mess and nobody would have bought them in the first place.

They are not fit for purpose.

EDIT: I was referring to the first post on page 6. I think you got it.
My mistake.

BENT_8 · 06-07-2016, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

And that's why Ford are in trouble here.

If Ford marketed it as an automated manual and told people they had to change their driving styles two things would have happened.

Ford wouldn't be in this mess and nobody would have bought them in the first place.

They are not fit for purpose.

EDIT: I was referring to the first post on page 6. I think you got it.
My mistake.

And it took me 5 minutes to research the way they should be driven to see where the problem is and why only certain vehicles suffer and why inner city drivers discover it earlier.
Its all in the creep, just as you would burn out a clutch in a manual if you rode it for 20,000k's, so too do users of this gearbox when they drive it like a conventional auto.

We recently bought a CVT powered vehicle, as i've never had experience with a CVT transmission before i googled them and discovered that they are best used like a centrifical clutch in a scooter etc. Just squeeze the throttle and they wind up, no flares between gears etc.
I explained their operation to the wife and with a little adjustment she loves it.

So there it is, if i'd just bought the thing and driven it home i'd probably be complaining that it doesnt drive like a conventional auto, but i didnt, it was new to me so i researched it.
Same as the DSG, when first presented with it i wouild have researched it to see what it was all about, realised it wasnt your run of the mill torque convertor auto and adjusted accordingly, the info is out there if you chose to look.

poppa smurf · 06-07-2016, 07:52 PM

only one thing to say to a statement like that ......B####sh#t.......the box has many more problems than the one you "googled".......do you think you are the only one to study up on why the box is buggerising around......sorry but you are a couple of years out of date.

prydey · 06-07-2016, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

.. snip...Mondeo with powershift and upon researching them i kept the hell away..snip...

off topic, but mondeo powershift is a wet clutch 'box and is awesome. focus/fiesta etc is dry clutch, and shouldn't be confused with the wet clutch version.

poppa smurf · 06-07-2016, 08:28 PM

bit of light reading

http://www.motoring.com.au/volkswage...sg-cars-37051/

http://www.just-auto.com/news/ford-f..._id162848.aspx

plenty more about the boxes problems which is far more involved than just a simple clutch slippage

BENT_8 · 06-07-2016, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

off topic, but mondeo powershift is a wet clutch 'box and is awesome. focus/fiesta etc is dry clutch, and shouldn't be confused with the wet clutch version.

Totally correct Prydey, and had i looked closer at the concept i would have discovered that and considered further when we bought the Sportivo, but i read all the negative stuff and used caution.

It wasnt until i looked into them further that i realised why the dry clutch box is problematic.
Things like the shudder can be contributed to worn clutches and the resultant dust build up, the worn clutches the result of the small clutches engaging and releasing as the car creeps forward in heavy traffic, the clunking and loss of gears the result of the box trying to work out what the driver wants from it and jumping between shafts as it shifts up and down every few seconds.
They are worn out from incorrect use the same way a normal manual would be if the clutch was ridden to the studs and then continued to be driven without it.

People can make their own minds up and throw their hat in the ring if they want to take Ford on, but i dont think they will be successful, imo.

BENT_8 · 06-07-2016, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

bit of light reading

http://www.motoring.com.au/volkswage...sg-cars-37051/

http://www.just-auto.com/news/ford-f..._id162848.aspx

plenty more about the boxes problems which is far more involved than just a simple clutch slippage

Poppa, the reason the control module and seals fail is due to heat, the boxes get hot due to the clutches slipping, the clutches slip because they are worn out, the clutches are worn out because...

Oh, and maybe calm down, just because you dont agree doesnt mean im wrong even when you swear to get your point across.
It is my opinion and im entitled to it, you dont have to read it or give it any credit but it is what it is.

Adamz Ghia · 06-07-2016, 09:14 PM

I can see your point, I really can. But I strongly believe by not informing buyers of the need to change the way you drive to avoid damage prior to purchase is deceptive. Many wouldn't have bought them if they knew.

mcnews · 06-07-2016, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

And it took me 5 minutes to research the way they should be driven to see where the problem is and why only certain vehicles suffer and why inner city drivers discover it earlier.
Its all in the creep, just as you would burn out a clutch in a manual if you rode it for 20,000k's, so too do users of this gearbox when they drive it like a conventional auto.

We recently bought a CVT powered vehicle, as i've never had experience with a CVT transmission before i googled them and discovered that they are best used like a centrifical clutch in a scooter etc. Just squeeze the throttle and they wind up, no flares between gears etc.
I explained their operation to the wife and with a little adjustment she loves it.

So there it is, if i'd just bought the thing and driven it home i'd probably be complaining that it doesnt drive like a conventional auto, but i didnt, it was new to me so i researched it.
Same as the DSG, when first presented with it i wouild have researched it to see what it was all about, realised it wasnt your run of the mill torque convertor auto and adjusted accordingly, the info is out there if you chose to look.

Happy in your own little make believe world are you ?

BENT_8 · 06-07-2016, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

Happy in your own little make believe world are you ?

I will be when this gets thrown out.

poppa smurf · 06-07-2016, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Poppa, the reason the control module and seals fail is due to heat, the boxes get hot due to the clutches slipping, the clutches slip because they are worn out, the clutches are worn out because...

Oh, and maybe calm down, just because you dont agree doesnt mean im wrong even when you swear to get your point across.
It is my opinion and im entitled to it, you dont have to read it or give it any credit but it is what it is.

I'm as calm as newborn puppy........I have had these talks many times with the Ford mob, those in the know agree, and now, reluctantly so is Ford, you have your opinion and it must be corrected, reading about it and owning one are vastly different things

the clutches are not slipping, I am not going into detail AGAIN as to what it is doing, suffice to say the box is simply not fit for purpose (city driving) the box has many problems which are very widely known.

vztrt · 06-07-2016, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

Out of curiosity, how many defects do other auto makers who sell this kind of gear box get?

VW was (prob still is) getting serious issues. They did nothing in oz till they were getting some real bad publicity.....while they were doing something about it in other markets. Unfortunetley in oz the law is weak when it comes to cars.

Proper lemon laws do need to be in place. Otherwise car manufactures will get away with it here. I actually agree with BENT 8 that they will win the case....but its because your already on the backfoot when fighting the car manufactures.

adumb · 07-07-2016, 02:18 PM

Is there two issues at play here?
Genuinely faulty gearboxes and people who just don't like/didn't expect how a DSG drives?

I've got a 7 speed VW DSG and it drives differently to my 6 speed ZF, but then thats also different to my old 4 speed BTR.

Bossxr8 · 07-07-2016, 04:12 PM

The problem is more likely faulty gearboxes, not the design imo. If the design was wrong they would all be stuffed?

prydey · 07-07-2016, 04:34 PM

anyone have any idea of an accurate pecentage of Focus' that have this issue?

Forums are never an accurate read on the true situation. like the 'milkshake' issue with falcons, whilst it may appear widespread, is probably closer to being about 2-5% of cars affected.

I see plenty of Focuses driving around, and since 2011 when this issue supposedly started, i've not once seen one driving 'oddly' etc. i'm not saying there aren't issues there, but some people seem to be making out they are braking down with such regularity they are stranded on every street corner.

hopefully those who do have issues get some sort of resolution they are happy with. Ford have offered those affected extended 5yr/160000km warranty so thats something i guess.

with the latest focus it was obviously cheaper to go back to a conventional auto rather than fit the wet clutch version already found in diesel models.

**Silver Ghia** · 07-07-2016, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The problem is more likely faulty gearboxes, not the design imo. If the design was wrong they would all be stuffed?

If the design was not faulty, there would be no problems at all with the dsg gearboxes.

They should be designed for all intended operating environments. City, stop/crawl/start congested freeway traffic, and country driving.

GTP534 · 07-07-2016, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

anyone have any idea of an accurate pecentage of Focus' that have this issue?

Forums are never an accurate read on the true situation. like the 'milkshake' issue with falcons, whilst it may appear widespread, is probably closer to being about 2-5% of cars affected.

I see plenty of Focuses driving around, and since 2011 when this issue supposedly started, i've not once seen one driving 'oddly' etc. i'm not saying there aren't issues there, but some people seem to be making out they are braking down with such regularity they are stranded on every street corner.

hopefully those who do have issues get some sort of resolution they are happy with. Ford have offered those affected extended 5yr/160000km warranty so thats something i guess.

with the latest focus it was obviously cheaper to go back to a conventional auto rather than fit the wet clutch version already found in diesel models.

Prydey, my thoughts:

Manual Focus - lovely car.

Powershift - spoils what is otherwise a lovely little car.

The majority of those who say it's a driver style issue obviously haven't owned one and lived with it.

The sales pitch is that it is an automatic - I wouldn't say that's deception, I just don't think the sales people know any better.

Once you take it back, the service people will tell you it's not an automatic but an automated manual and you get told things like accelerate uniformly, don't accelerate then take pressure off the accelerator, try not to crawl in traffic. I mean, a proper automatic can handle that day in-day out.

I feel really sorry for the service guys at Sinclair Ford; of all the Fords we've had from them the Focus is the only one we've complained about.

The dry plate clutch exacerbates the problem.

With the current situation we'll just hold on to it and see how it pans out. I believe there will be a resolution in favour of owners.

Strange1 · 07-07-2016, 06:51 PM

It seems a bit odd if the boxes aren't designed for creeping in traffic for them to be fitted to the Fiestas and EcoSports which are designed for city life.

prydey · 07-07-2016, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP534

Prydey, my thoughts:

Manual Focus - lovely car.

Powershift - spoils what is otherwise a lovely little car.

my wife currently has a LS Focus, and I'd always thought at some point I'd upgrade it...

I guess the smart thing to do would be to buy a manual or a diesel, as the diesel uses the wet clutch version.

**DFB FGXR6** · 07-07-2016, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

my wife currently has a LS Focus, and I'd always thought at some point I'd upgrade it...

I guess the smart thing to do would be to buy a manual or a diesel, as the diesel uses the wet clutch version.

Or the LZ with EcoBoost and conventional 6 speed auto. That combo is quite pokey.

mik · 07-07-2016, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

If the design was not faulty, there would be no problems at all with the dsg gearboxes.

They should be designed for all intended operating environments. City, stop/crawl/start congested freeway traffic, and country driving.

i suspect , some of these cars dont do a lot of miles , and possibly some actually have the problem , but owners just believe its within tolerance

, or just are not even aware that the vehicle is driving poorly , and are bound to end up in a workshop at some stage down the track .

poppa smurf · 08-07-2016, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP534

Prydey, my thoughts:

Manual Focus - lovely car.

Powershift - spoils what is otherwise a lovely little car.

The majority of those who say it's a driver style issue obviously haven't owned one and lived with it.

The sales pitch is that it is an automatic - I wouldn't say that's deception, I just don't think the sales people know any better.

Once you take it back, the service people will tell you it's not an automatic but an automated manual and you get told things like accelerate uniformly, don't accelerate then take pressure off the accelerator, try not to crawl in traffic. I mean, a proper automatic can handle that day in-day out.

I feel really sorry for the service guys at Sinclair Ford; of all the Fords we've had from them the Focus is the only one we've complained about.

The dry plate clutch exacerbates the problem.

With the current situation we'll just hold on to it and see how it pans out. I believe there will be a resolution in favour of owners.

this in spades........the vehicle in itself is a terrific little car and ideally suited for city driving....but with the box in its current configuration makes for a very painful drive.

I took the little feller for a drive last night and I must say since the last update the box is performing a lot better but it still has a lot of issues.

Ford "service" does not help.

damn shame......kills a fantastic little car.

Mercury Bullet · 08-07-2016, 01:18 PM

What does the update do Poppa?

I believe they can have trouble being in the wrong gear sometimes?

Adamz Ghia · 08-07-2016, 01:57 PM

Mums was replaced less than 3000km's ago and has already shuddered. Fan bloody tastic.

poppa smurf · 08-07-2016, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

What does the update do Poppa?

I believe they can have trouble being in the wrong gear sometimes?

well I am not 100% sure but it has to do with the "chip/computer" that is inside the trans itself.

when Mr's smurf returns I will post the actual update number so others can make sure they have it.

but apparently it tries to solve the "undecided" part of the gear selection and makes a downshift faster and more reliable.

as it is now (worse before) one of the problems was that the box would assume that if you are in say 4th then the next gear would logically be fifth but then if you slow for any reason without coming to a complete stop the box would not shift back but instead try and hold fourth ready to swap to fifth.

this was the way it was explained to me by one of the "good mechanics" who used to work at Ford.

the update solves this somehow....by the gods of voodoo and witchcraft.

however it does not solve the shuddering, surging forward or sudden speeding up nor the death rattle from deep within the box.

like many others we will await the outcome of proceedings to decide the way forward, it is not worth selling at this point.