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#1 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 575
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I saw somewhere on the forum that a mechanic told someone to keep his Ecotec. I know that Holden started to use a V6 from the VN and the Ecotec must be a version of the V6 (?). What is so good about it and what years was it used by Holden? Thanks in advance.
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#2 | ||
Cabover nut
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Onsite Eastcoast
Posts: 10,827
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And Buick.
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heritagestonemason.com/Fordlouisvillerestoration In order that the labour of centuries past may not be in vain during the centuries to come...... D. Diderot 1752
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#3 | ||
Peter Car
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,145
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VN to VY. And it's a boat anchor, that was especially rough as guts in the early years. Seem to be pretty reliable though, unlike the later HFV6 that replaced it.
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#4 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,343
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Quote:
It is very different to the earlier unit with smaller (lighter) castings & was much smoother & more economical than the V6s before it. It was still all cast iron & super reliable. The early VN V6 (LN3) was torquey but rough & noisy, the 91 onwards L27 version was smoother & quieter than LN3 but not as good as the ECOTec. I've run many of these in my fleet & Franco is on the money with his fault list. They are as tough as nails & will go almost forever (I've had several in my fleet do over 700,000 km) & their head gaskets just don't die. Dr Terry |
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#5 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 7,854
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But they make this noise like: Mang Mang Mang
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#6 | ||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,011
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Super reliable, all cast iron construction - hands down second best 6 cylinder engine used in a Holden (RB30ET no 1)
The only thing that goes wrong with them is alternator (15 min job), intake manifold gaskets, CKP, DFI, AC compressor and ignition coils. CKP is a bit of a bastard, its inside the balancer and you need a removal tool to remove the balancer but otherwise everything else is all gucci. Here's a photo of how the AC compressors leak and crap out - you can see how easy the ignition coils and DFI are to get to replace in the first photo as well, right there on the top of the engine at the front. ![]() ![]() HFV6 ('Alloytec' from VZ onwards) makes better numbers on paper but its torqueless ****box with design problems in comparison to the mighty Mang machine. They should have used the SAAB 2.8L turbo version of the HFV6 that they were making in the Port Melbourne engine plant, instead of the 3.6L naturally aspirated job for the Commodore. I love me a good Ecotec, got some love for the L67 supercharged version too, its got potential, just very underdone from factory ![]() Last edited by Franco Cozzo; 19-01-2023 at 05:43 PM. |
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#7 | ||
Donating Member
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Posts: 12,148
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The name Ecotec only came later on with the VS, previous to that is was largely un-named.
Getting back to basics, this engine appeared in the VN Commodore as a replacement for the terrific Nissan-sourced 3.0 inline 6, which was far more advanced in that it had a OHC with an alloy head. The 3.8 V6 was an all-iron pushrod OHV 90-degree V6 adapted from Buick. The earliest versions of this Buick V6 were crude and poorly refined, and that's putting it politely. Power output was 127 kW @ 4800 and 292 Nm @ 3200. While these figures sat in the middle of the two 3.9 Falcon engines, Holden's trick was to fit a low first and second gear ratios to make the thing slingshot forward with much more vigor compared to the moonshot geared Falcon's. The 3.8 got a small power update and refinement improvements (it was still harsh as all hell) for the VR with 130 kW and 295 Nm at the same rpms. The VS Commodore introduced the Ecotec version of the V6. This featured a lot of mechanical changes to improve refinement, power and fuel economy. This is where this engine really should have started, as the Ecotec was vastly better than the previous incarnations. Power was up to 147 kW @ 5200 and 304 Nm @ 3600. Again, short gearing and light weight made these engines more toey than the figures suggest. The VS also introduced the pointless supercharged version with 165 kW @ 5200 and 370 Nm @ 3000, available on selected grades. Both versions of the Ecotec were still far away from the best Japanese V6's, and probably on par with the wheezy Falcon 6. All Ecotec's from start to finish on VY II had a 5900 rpm limit. The base Ecotec carried over into the VT Commodore, which had gained weight and softened the performance. The supercharged version rose to 171 kW @ 5200 and 375 Nm @ 3000, while HSV offered the very unpopular 180 kW @ 5000 and 380 Nm @ 3000 version on the XU6. For the VX Commodore, the base engine rose to 152 kW @ 5200 and 305 Nm @ 3000. With the arrival of the VY, the Ecotec got another round of refinement improvements, including a vibration damper. It was still a hoary old thing though. Power and torque figures remained across the board from the VX though. These powertrains continued on until the VZ arrived with the equally horrible GM HFV6 or Alloytec. The Alloytec was heavily hyped and was expected to smash the competition with class leading technology, power and refinement targets. It was said at the time that GM had benchmarked Honda, Toyota and Nissan V6's for refinement, output and cost of manufacturing. I'm not sure what happened, but GM must have had dud benchmark engines when they were engineering the HFV6. For what supposed to be a landmark engine, ended up being one of the worst engines ever designed. I had to laugh reading the early reviews of the VZ's with Alloytec engines, especially compared to the Ford, Mitsubishi and Toyota competition. Even the oldest engine among those, the Barra 182, smashed it for refinement and torque. (I refer to the Barra being old because, let's face it, it was a new head on an old block.) Then you had the terrific Magna V6 and revvy Toyota 3.0 V6 which only made this all-new GM engine look silly. Circling back to the Buick V6, while they were terribly refined, the fuel economy, performance and reliability certainly won many over. But let's face it, the only reason Holden used that engine was because it was dirt cheap, both in engineering and manufacturing terms. They sounded and felt rough, way beyond the "sporty" brand image they were going for. I once offended an American forum member with my views on the Buick V6, but it's all true, the engine was simply another example of a cost-conscious American manufacturer.
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#8 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,011
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Quote:
![]() Mind you as much as it sucked in the Buick form prior to becoming the 'Ecotec' in the VS, they had a variant of it that had sequential fuel injection and was turboed in the mid 1980s that was used in the Buick Grand National GNX 276hp/360lbft, mid 13 second quarter mile and sub 5 second 0-100 times in 1987 from an American manufacturer when they were churning out turds like the 302W and the GM 305/350 boat anchors. ![]() ![]() ![]() https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...l-gnx-history/ The fact they did this in the 1980s, then the L67 comes along with its hair dryer Eaton M90 supercharger makes me scratch my head, but I suspect the L67 was designed for transverse fitments in FWD cars and Holden decided to use it in a RWD application. While it has its foibles, I'm not sure I'd write off the Buick V6 or the Ecotec as crap, maybe just that Ford Australia consistently knocked it out the park with limited resources on ye olde I6 from the SOHC to Barra era. Look at the Tickford variants of the EF/EL/AU SOHC compared to the 302W. I look at the Buick V6/Ecotec as the 6 cylinder equivalent of the GM 350, make an engine thats cheap to produce than smash it in absolutely everything where it will fit ![]() Last edited by Franco Cozzo; 19-01-2023 at 06:42 PM. |
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#9 | |||
Donating Member
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Quote:
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#10 | ||
Thailand Specials
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#11 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 456
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I purchased my VY Ecotec Wagon new in 2003 and still have it. It is a great engine. Nice torque and great economy on the highway for a V6. They have reputation for reliability and longevity provided they are looked after. I have sports suspension (FE2) fitted to my car from the factory. It handles well for a big car.
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#12 | ||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
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These guys did stock Ecotec + turbo
My lord it sounds horrible ![]() At the end they compare it with a NA Barra that they also turboed, Barra made 10hp less but at half the amount of boost that the Ecotec has. Poor ol' mang doesn't flow air too well through its heads ![]() Its still nearly 300KW on 15 PSI though. |
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#13 | |||
Donating Member
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Quote:
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#14 | ||
*barks incessantly
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: SA
Posts: 1,552
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It probably cost them sfa to turbo the Ecotec. Sure, it sounds hideous but 300kw at the wheels is more than twice the power that engine made standard.
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#15 | ||
Ford screwed the Falcon
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 7,038
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The Alloytec was a dud. I remember when the VZ Commodore was released in 2006 the media's response was very muted. A brand new engine and brand new assembly plant with nothing carried over from the VY Ecotec engine. Yet the new engine was not significantly any better than the old engine. And the 'old' Barra gave it a good run for it's money. Which is why I was livid when Ford planned to ditch the local I6 for an imported gutless V6 from 2010. Thankfully that decision was reversed.
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Falcon: 1960 - 2016 My cars Current ride 2016 FG X XR6 - 6 speed manual Previous rides 2009 FG XR6 - 6 speed auto 2006 BF MkII XT ESP - 6 speed auto 2003 BA XT V8 - 5 speed manual 1999 AU Forte - 5 speed manual 1997 EL Fairmont - 4 speed auto 1990 EAII Fairmont Ghia - 4 speed auto |
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#16 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,127
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I really liked the VT commodore with the V6 Ecotec. It was damn reliable with plenty of grunt and surprisingly good on fuel (especially on the highway).
Parents had a supercharged VY which was still their favourite commodore outside of v8's. (VP, VT, VY, VZ, VE V8, VF V8)
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#17 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,595
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Yep it's a legend in it's reliability, just done another 500km country run in our low km wagon example. It was widely revered as a boat anchor on it's tests in the day, and yet the HFV6 managed to out crud it, which is a remarkable achievement. Later with direct injection, the SIDI ones would form interesting carbon deposits that tended to make the LHS cylinder bank (looking from front of car) blacken up, with a clogged PCV with too little holes, too little airflow, too much gunk, gummed up valves, gummed up and slipping timing chains.
But this is about the Ecotec! All iron, all good. Franco points out the problems well. It's everything Holden's best 6 (the 186 - can't vote for a Nissan motor) had - simplicity, reliability, cheap parts, torque low down, and reasonable economy. 186 was smoother though: the Ecotec is still a rumbly rough idling thing despite the improvements. Got 7.7L/100km on last 500km trip up the coast, and 9.6 coming back into Satan's headwind. Every time the VY goes to the mechanics, 2-3 tradies offer them to buy it. Last visit was just like the one before, and the one before. Back roads of Australia are filled with sun-faded VYs, I've seen so many of them. The GM-H mechanics, when Dad used to get the wagon serviced at a big Metropolitan dealer, used to tell him to keep it and not upgrade!
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#18 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,595
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Oh yeah - Dr Terry can you confirm - isn't the Buick V6 a 3/4 iron block version of the initial American aluminium V8 that became the Rover V8?
If so we have 14/6ths = 7/3rds of Ecotec in the family lol
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#19 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,343
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Quote:
You often hear of "praise" for the RB30 Nissan 6-cyl used in the VL as being such a great engine & so much better than the V6. If you worked in the motor industry during the late 80s into the 90s (especially in a Holden dealership) you probably wouldn't share that view. Sure the 3.0 was smooth, refined & economical, but they lacked the low-down torque, that Aussie 6-cyl buyers were used to & they also had a long list of service & reliability issues, shared withe R31 Skyline. Things like head gaskets, broken exhaust manifold studs, faulty electronics, including crank sensors, air flow meters, coolant temp sensors, oxygen sensors, ignition amplifiers, ECUs. They were great for the auto service game in the early 90s. just like EA/EB Fords & Mits Magnas. In hindsight & over the longer term, the ECOTec V6, was a far more durable & torquey powerplant. If you look at the 2nd hand values of VT, VX & VY V6 models, it speaks volumes. Dr Terry |
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#20 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 545
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I was in the automotive industry then and do not recall most of that. We had a VL and did well over 600k km. Was still going strong when we sold it. It had had the H/gasket done prior to us owning it as this happened very early on in their lives. Also had to do the exhaust manifold studs and the CAS. I also had to change the tranny (unlike todays tranny) and a water pump. Was one of the best cars we have had. Mind you we have a 380 that's turned 500k km with nothing failing on the drivetrain at all. Now that is a V6. Goes as good now as the day we got her.
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#21 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,595
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Quote:
I will add one caution to the Buick V6 - the temperature sender located down near the harmonic balancer would sometimes fail in higher temperatures. This occurred on my Dad's VR, the wagon he had before the VY. He'd be driving along, then the sensor would not send a signal, then the car would shut down all power assistance to motor, brakes, steering etc. He once mounted a roundabout in this fashion. Did it still occur by VS? Dunno, but by VY I'd say this is sorted. Franco, do you have any pics of the alternator fix? It looks like I'll be doing more long drives in the VY soon, so any pics of what to look for appreciated.
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#22 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 348
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In a previous non-Ford life I had a 1995 VS Acclaim sedan. It had the Buick-derived V6. I did about 290,000km in that car and it was a very good car. It was reliable and comfortable. I miss it a bit actually. When the time came, it was between the VE SV6 and the BF XR6. The Ford came home with me. It was simply a better car than the VE.
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#23 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,370
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Quote:
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#24 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,343
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Quote:
Dr Terry |
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#25 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 990
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Quote:
I have driven a few V6 ECOTEC and performance can very a fair bit as some are gutless and some can go real well. Same with any engine off the production line from new ? 3.8L ECOTEC will rev to 5500 RPM easy as with good power at 5500RPM, no factory Ford 250 does that. One Dude DFB claims the gearing of the Commodore V6 auto is lower and that being why the great torque, well that's nonsense ! Being a OHV makes such more responsive down low than OHC. The VN V6 auto was touchy on taking off, but I think I read about how Holden dealt with that issue later on, with the throttle feed in cam change in the VS I think. The gearing is no different really to any Holden 3 sp auto with a 3.08 ratio diff in 1st and 2ed, 3rd. Just that the Ford 4.0L OHC makes such so gutless right off the mark right down low. until the great DOHC 4.0L came out with a 6 speed auto that had a real good 1st gear ratio, so as to take off with real getup and go from the line. The Holden 3.6L Alloytec is gutless right down low because it was a OHC but went well when revved out not to mention not harsh at all worth crying about. But for what some fools claim that the 3.6L Aloytec being harsh regarding other 3.0L V6 etc, well sure they are because they are a smaller engine. Morons make claims that Honda Toyota etc V6 are smoother well their is a reason why such is so, just like back in the 70's with the Jap 6 cyl they were smaller 2.4L 2.6L 2.8L and then up to even 3.0L 6cyl and OHC. like the VL Commodore a nice smooth 6 cyl but gutless right down low off the mark. Not to mention Holden Red 202 and Blue black could be harsh but Holden never balanced the engines so some were shocking harsh rubbish when revved out but some not as shockingly balanced. Just look at the conrods shows lack of any regards in that respect for a start. But as to refinement of the Ecotec V6 it got shorter skirt pistons, that makes for a lighter piston and that makes for a less harshness revving engine and the ECOTEC block was shorter deck height because regarding the new high tec pistons have thinner rings as well so the height of the piston was reduced as well as the skirt. |
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#26 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 348
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[QUOTE=Peter B - CV8;6777440]Similar to me. I had a VS Statesman & put about 250,000km on it - all troublefree motoring. These Ecotec motors weren't comfortable having their necks wrung & were pretty coarse at high revs. They were a good touring car & ate up the miles with ease - you just had to keep the engine revs in their "happy place".[/
When deciding on the VS Acclaim I had a Lexcen V6 as a hire car for a week and the following week an EL Falcon to compare back to back. Went to Avis or Budget or Hertz, whichever had the two cars I was comparing. Lived with each car for a week. Simulated life as the owner of each car and observed what it would be like. |
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#27 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canberra
Posts: 13,372
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Mum had a VT Series II and a VE SV6, both autos. I prefer the VT.
She traded the SV6 for a Cruze and well nothing more need to be said about that ![]() |
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#28 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,011
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The thing that I love about this thread is that anyone who has experience with Ecotec Commodore, whether thats fixing them or driving them, prefers Ecotec over Alloytec.
The only value option Alloytec is the straight LPG variation (LWR) introduced in 2012 - which I doubt many of us have experience with unless you happen to drive between Melbourne Airport and Melbourne CBD for a living. Its got 12.2:1 compression ratio, 180KW @ 6000 RPM and 320NM @ 2000 RPM http://australiancar.reviews/holden_LWR.php The only problem is its in a very heavy car so it dulls that torque a lot. Interesting note is that it actually exceeded Euro VI emissions regulations requirements too. VN-VS are very light cars, my Caprice only weighs circa 1550kg, a Buick VN is only a touch over 1300kg. Quote:
From memory part number is BXH1333 Last edited by Franco Cozzo; 20-01-2023 at 09:45 PM. |
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#29 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,595
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Thanks Franco, the fault I remember being told about was an electrical connection at the back of the alternator that falls off and begins to short around the engine bay, do you know of that one? I'd say that could be fixed with new parts with alternator still in place.
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#30 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,011
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