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#1 | ||
Rob
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: VN Capital
Posts: 1,584
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Just throwing this idea out there. If i can pick up this job im after ill be earning enough money to justify a cam + tune.
However i dont have much of an idea of what im up for. So.. I don't care for top speed, would rather have torque. And that lumpy idle sound (if they go hand in hand..) I was thinking of a Crow "Hi Torque" cam purely because of the name. But im sure someone can mention a similar/better cam for torque So questions. Will a 'high torque producing cam have a lumpy sound?' A different gear ratio will help with torque? is it worth it if i get a cam+tune Will i need associated cam gear like valve springs etc? if so, what. Will diff gears alone produce better torque as a worthy upgrade Whats the best ratio for what i'm after And what are the associated costs, id expect around $1500 for cam+tune (thats without taking into consideration associated cam gear) Have no idea about costs of diff gears Sorry about the questions but i want to gain enough knowledge if this goes ahead. Thanks.
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99 liquid silver AU Classic -Sold
Supercharged Nissan 350z 280rwkw Blueprint series 3 AU V8 manual |
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#2 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: jimboomba
Posts: 4,638
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Read Montys build thread
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Welder/Fabricator at Beaudesert Exhuast Posted by Xcabbi, Does it slap or rattle? Rattle is more to do with timing chains and tensioners. Slap is more to do with lifters, rings, bearings or GENIII boat anchors |
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#3 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 606
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Look further afield than crow for a cam, I'll leave it at that.
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9/98 AU1 XR6hp-about to retire from the road and be reborn on the race track. 86 ZL mint grandpa spec with premo sound and 150000km 07 TTG XForce, PLAZMAMAN, IDYNO TUNED, 349KW@all 4! 97 el futura MOCKed up with a 2500 stall, heaps of fun! |
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#4 | ||||
Still a Ford boy... Just.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Hills
Posts: 554
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#5 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,566
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also +1
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Current Blueprint 03 xr8 ![]() 5 speed manual, Difilippo Quad Big Boy system, BPR CAI, BPR Custom tune, Underdrives 256rwkw ![]() ![]() BA manual Typhoon Fully optioned, 340rwkw@16psi (thanks Bluepower)! The old ride.... AU Fairmont, cammed beast, R.I.P you made my p plate years bearable! 150.8rwkw courtesy BPR |
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#6 | ||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,326
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What is said below is based on personal experience. This is by no means gospel and everyone will have their own opinion on the matter.
Will a 'high torque producing cam have a lumpy sound?' If you mean high torque as in producing torque 'down low' in the rev range, then NO would be the answer to this question. Generally lumpy cams have tighter lobe separation angles to produce the 'lumpiness' you often hear of in V8's. Generally speaking, and I mean generally, the lumpier the cam, the higher the rev range the engine will make power/torque. This in turn means you will either need a manual or high stall converter to make the car use the designed power the cam is intended for. Don't get me wrong, the car will still run, but it will be 'doughy' at low revs till the revs pick up and the cam is working in its designed rev range. Histalls and diff gears gets the engine to that desired rev range much sooner than stock. A different gear ratio will help with torque? is it worth it if i get a cam+tune Absolutely if you are looking for faster take offs from stand still. Also this will aid the engine to reach the cam rev range the cam is designed for, faster. Thus in turn, achieving the power quicker. In fact, I would not consider running a bigger cam without diff gears, OR if the cam upgrade is a mild upgrade, you may be able to run stock running gear ok. Will i need associated cam gear like valve springs etc? if so, what. This depends on if you are getting a reground cam, or new billet. As a rule of thumb, I recommend a new set of valve springs for a cam that is significantly designed for a lot more power. For a mild grind, you can get away with using stock valve springs if the manufacturer specifies it as ok. Consider asking the cam manufacturer for recommended valve springs at the time of ordering. Every brand is different so there is no real way of saying yes or no. Cam regrind requires shims based on how much of the cam was ground in the first place. The supplier will recommend what size shims you need. New cams do not need shims, but are more expensive Will diff gears alone produce better torque as a worthy upgrade I wouldnt say diff gears 'produce' torque, but rather assist the existing torque of your engine to come on earlier in the rev range. If you care about getting to a given speed fast, diff gears will certainly give you this. Be aware there is a trade off. Your engine will rev a bit higher at cruising speed, fuel consumption will be affected. Whats the best ratio for what i'm after I was told that for a street setup with auto trans go with 3.7 ratio. For a street setup with manual gearbox - 3:45 ratio will suit very well. Of course this will be argued due to everyone having different setups to suit different applications. But as a guide, the above ratios will suit a good street style setup. And what are the associated costs, id expect around $1500 for cam+tune (thats without taking into consideration associated cam gear) With this, it can vary. Depending on if you went reground cam or new billet. Plus who does the fitting and tuning and what other items you need to get the most out of your cam. Don't just think throwing in a cam and a tune is all you need. You need to work out what you want your car to achieve. Is it for towing, street driving, circuit racing, drag racing, general daily driving....what? This will be the first thing the cam suppliers will be asking. Then they will need to know what stall speed you intend on running, diff gears, max rpm speed, wheel diameter size, tire size, the list goes on. Don't be one of the knobs and stick a massively lumpy cam in for 'fully sick' reasons. It will drive like a complete dog and your fuel consumption will suck at best, with no power when you most need it. Be smart about what cam you choose, and be honest about the application you intend you car to be used for. Have no idea about costs of diff gears Diff gears can vary. Speak to those who have already done it. Steer away from 2nd hand diff gears as they are prone to whining when fitted to aother diff. If you want to go second hand, seek a complete diff with gears, axles the lot from an xr model (assuming 3:45s are what you are looking for). I did this and found a diff for $500 with low km with 3.45 ratio. Fitted new diff oil to it and its fine apart from LSD needing to be repacked. Hope this has helped.
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic Last edited by blueoval; 10-11-2010 at 02:59 PM. |
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#7 | ||
Just slidin'
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 7,791
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Id factor in 2k plus for the cam and tune.
Billet Cam (not regrind) - $600 Vernier gear - $220 If you want a big cam you will need: Valve springs - $220 plus install - $300 Valve sring retainers Xcal 3, chiptorque chip etc - $8-900 Custom tune - $600-1000 3.9 Diff gears, a LOKKA and install would be around the $1200 mark. Ive done both, and can fully say with no hesitation that the diff gears are a 98683 times better mod. Fastest AU other than Stiddy ran a 14.2 with standard cam, but theres barely a car under the 15 second mark without diff gears.
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MD Mondeo - For the family
NP Pajero - For the adventure |
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#8 | |||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,326
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Quote:
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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#9 | |||
Still a Ford boy... Just.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Hills
Posts: 554
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Very well said blueoval.
The Monty is on the case aswell. Its about the cheapest and all you can do in that list before you start looking into things like head porting, engine rebuilds and all that kinda fun stuff. I love these motors, more so than the twin cam barra motors. These engines have so much potential if done right.
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#10 | ||
Just slidin'
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 7,791
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If you want to save money you can have my cam and Vernier gear, its a surecam cam, .535 lift, 218@.050 duration and 114 l.s. Comes on hard around 3500rpm, makes 410nm of torque, and will happily rev to 6400rpm. Vernier gear is a Crow Cams vernier gear. I also have a head here with the valve springs and retainers in it, but I would want that taken off by the person buying it. Whole lot for $750.
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#11 | |||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,326
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Quote:
Dammit, why couldn't you be in SA. ![]()
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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#12 | ||
Just slidin'
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 7,791
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Same Cam, yes. Ill send the cam and vernier gear.
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MD Mondeo - For the family
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#13 | ||
Rob
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: VN Capital
Posts: 1,584
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Sorry guys i have been away for a week.
Shav, love reading your replies as always. Thanks for answering everything. As you say not to chuck a cam in and be done with it. Yet to try find a job over the holidays, as i was actually on holidays, so just trying to research it a bit. Thanks monty, just read your parting out the blue car thread and your cam came to mind instantly. Ill keep researching and keep looking for a decent paying job before i make a decision. But ill keep you in mind. It seems id be better off doing LSD and diff gears first however???
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99 liquid silver AU Classic -Sold
Supercharged Nissan 350z 280rwkw Blueprint series 3 AU V8 manual |
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#14 | |||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,326
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Quote:
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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#15 | ||
Just slidin'
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 7,791
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Id do the diff gears first. If your thinking about racing it, Id steer clear of an LSD though, head for a LOKKA. If its for streetduties only, just get an LSD.
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MD Mondeo - For the family
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#16 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 781
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if you want more torque and excellaration go the diff gears like mont said .for an au there the best bang for your buck. if you got an auto you'l need some sort of tune to get it to work.manual is easy get them fitted and just have fun.
if your after more torque from your motor ,try an xr6 cam ,get a vernier gear and advance it about 5* it will pull hard down low and still rev out ok. i take it you'd have all the usual intake and exhaust mods done already?
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au2 s i6 5 spd , au series 1 xr6 hp motor, cam advanced 5*,jmm cai ,topgun leads,pacey 4480's,3 inch cat,lukey 2 1/2 sports zorst and 3.89 lsd,standard ecu. current best,14.939 @ 93.17. |
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#17 | ||||
Rob
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: VN Capital
Posts: 1,584
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Quote:
Cant hurt to research it tho. Quote:
Would it really need a tune? that turns me off the idea now haha
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99 liquid silver AU Classic -Sold
Supercharged Nissan 350z 280rwkw Blueprint series 3 AU V8 manual |
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#18 | ||
Just slidin'
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 7,791
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I think he means regarding shiftpoints and speedo recalibration. I didnt get a tune for a while after getting diff gears done. Youll just hit the rev limiter sometimes on WOT. I didnt have this problem as my lmiter was raised so when it was changing gears I was still doing the same speed as I normally would be, just at a higher RPM.
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#19 | |||
Rob
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: VN Capital
Posts: 1,584
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Quote:
more to think about. Seems the next stage you have to start throwing some money at it.
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99 liquid silver AU Classic -Sold
Supercharged Nissan 350z 280rwkw Blueprint series 3 AU V8 manual |
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#20 | ||
Just slidin'
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 7,791
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And none of it is worth it. I had fun doing it, but if there is a next time, I would deffinately go boosted.
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#21 | ||
Rob
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: VN Capital
Posts: 1,584
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Well thats what i always thought, strap a super charger on and be done with it.
Although of course there is still need for intercooling tune etc etc.
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99 liquid silver AU Classic -Sold
Supercharged Nissan 350z 280rwkw Blueprint series 3 AU V8 manual |
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#22 | ||
Just slidin'
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 7,791
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If your after 200kwish there isnt a HUGE need for intercooling. Handy for sure, and deffinately worth it.
And you would need a tune. For me, its like this: Cam and associated bits and peices - $2400ish, if you want a ported head to match, $3500. Supercharger and tune -From $5k. Not much difference, and one ends up with 50kw more than the other. dont get me wrong though, I have no regrets doing the NA way, heaps of fun, but money for the gain wasnt worth it imo.
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MD Mondeo - For the family
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#23 | ||
Rob
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: VN Capital
Posts: 1,584
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Yea, it was interesting reading your builds, some great work. Also with N/A its like you didnt 'take the easy way out' by just bolting something on.
But if i was to do either id prefer the s/c
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99 liquid silver AU Classic -Sold
Supercharged Nissan 350z 280rwkw Blueprint series 3 AU V8 manual |
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#24 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Lyndhurst
Posts: 563
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would 4.11's be ok for an auto xr8 ute towing a tool trailer everyday ??
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#25 | |||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,326
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Quote:
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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#26 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Lyndhurst
Posts: 563
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The car is on LPG to, so when towing it struggles to tow the 1300ish kg's plus the heavy car, I know it will rev at 2400rpm. It pulls the trailer fine but only getting up to speed is very slow
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#27 | ||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,326
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I would consider a capa flash tune for your LPG so you can customize power for towing over diff gears.
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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#28 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Lyndhurst
Posts: 563
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I was told for LPG tune that I have to get a custom tune on both fuels first so that would be around 1500, I've already got a capa box from my old car to
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#29 | |||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,326
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Quote:
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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#30 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Lyndhurst
Posts: 563
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yeh i run lpg most of the time, petrol is only really for driving to the srevo when i have run out of gas, mabey 10km a week or so, il find out more about the tunes then, dont want to have to re-flash it everytime
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